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You're listening to the Transform your Life from the Inside Out podcast. In the episode this week, I am interviewing a long time and very good friend of mine. Her name is Shame Hyder, and Shama is considered to be a visionary strategist for the digital marketing age. She's a web and TV personality, a bestselling author, and she is an award-winning CEO of Zen media, which is a global marketing and digital PR firm. She's been named the Zen Master of Marketing by entrepreneur magazine and the millennial master of the universe by fast company. She's been honored by both the white house and the United Nations as one of the top 100 young entrepreneurs in the country. She's delivered keynotes in over 20 countries and spoken for many major brands around the world. She's been the recipient of many, many awards, including the prestigious technology titan emerging companies, CEO award. She's been named one of the top 25 entrepreneurs under 25 by business week in 2009, one of the top 30, under 30 entrepreneurs on America by INK magazine under the Forbes, 30 under 30 list of movers and shakers in 2015 as well. LinkedIn has named her as one of the top marketing voices and marketing and social media in the world. Now, obviously she has an amazing resume, but the reason I wanted to visit with her is because I want you to hear in her own words, how she views life and how she views entrepreneurship and how she views and approaches business. I think any entrepreneur can benefit. I don't think I know any entrepreneur can benefit from my conversation with her and especially, especially professional women and women in business and female entrepreneurs. We had a great conversation. It went in a lot of different directions about family and business and trends and media and the digital age and everything else. And hopefully you can find something in here for you that will help you in some aspect of your life, whether it be personally or professionally, in my opinion, she's one of the most amazing and inspiring people that I know. And beyond that, you know what she's real and she's a damn good person. She's one of the finest people that I know enjoy.

Hi, I'm Jim Fortin. And you're about to start Transforming your Life from the Inside Out with this podcast, I'm widely considered the leader in Subconscious Transformation and I've coached super achievers all around the world for over 25 years here, you're going to find no rah rah motivation and no hype because this podcast is a combination of Brain Science, Transformational Psychology, and Ancient Wisdom, all rolled into one to take your life to levels you've never thought possible if you're wanting a lot more in life to feel better, to heal, to have peace of mind, to feel powerful and alive, and to bring more abundance and prosperity into your life then this podcast is for you, because you're going to start learning how to master your mind and evolve your consciousness. And when you do that, anything you want then becomes possible for you. I'm glad you're here.

Jim Fortin: Okay. Anyway, we're starting here Shama, and we've been chatting for a bit. It's so nice to connect with you again, and you know, your resume, which I read a little earlier in the intro. You're a powerhouse. You really are. I mean, things like being recognized by the white house and the years that I've known you; you were recognized by business week and Forbes and all those kinds of things a vast company and Mashable, you really are a powerhouse. And I wanna talk about that in a moment and how you got there and how you see yourself. But I also wanna talk about one thing very important. First many years ago, you and Troy and Chip and I were sitting somewhere in Dallas talking about my marketing and Chip asked a question and none of us answered and he goes, Bueller. Bueller and we knew what Bueller was and you're like, seriously guys, who's Bueller. question is, do you know who Ferris Bueller is? Uh, I do.

Shama: I do now, Jim, I'm proud to say that. I know who Ferris Bueller is. I know about his day out. I know about his escapades now, but I certainly didn’t, and I love that you remembered that because I do not recall

Jim Fortin: yeah, you were, you were like

Shama: sounds right.

Jim Fortin: It was so funny. You're like serious guys. Whose Bueller and we were laughing. We're like, how can somebody not know who Ferris Bueller was. Now?

Shama: Yes, I have corrected my wayward ways.

Jim Fortin: Well, it's important. You know that, I mean, come on the powerhouse, you are, you know who Ferris Bueller is.

Shama: Fair enough. Yes. In my defense, I was not a child of the eighties, but of the nineties. Right. And I didn't grow up in the states, which I think I missed a lot of, So much pop culture. Right, right. That happens when you're a child in transition. So, I moved to states, uh, when I was nine. So, I think I missed a good chunk of there. There's a chunk missing there for sure. And my pop culture references, but I feel like I've, I've been, I've been trying to make up for it in the last few years.

Jim Fortin: Okay, good. So, you, you redeemed yourself?

Shama: Yes.

Jim Fortin: You know, being a child of the nineties, I often tell people still in my business programs, I tell people about you. I think I was your first client when you started Zen media.

Shama: One of my personal clients. Yes. At four. What? For sure. Yes.

Jim Fortin: And I remember something you taught me back then. I was your first Shama TV video that we shot somewhere.

Shama: Oh, my goodness.

Jim Fortin: Yeah. You don't remember that?

Shama: I remember that, but it's, it feels like a, here's a reference for you. It feels like a blast from the past.

Jim Fortin: It's a blast from the past. I was your, your first video. It was a short video. And I didn't like what I said, meaning I wanted to change it. And I said, Shama, are we gonna re-shoot that? And you said, Nope, one take. And we go, and I have learned more from that lesson. We teach people in my business programs, ship it, meaning successful people. You do it and you put it out. Whereas most people over obsess and over perfect and over perfect. And you were a 24-year-old kid, a smart one. And I learned that lesson and over the years you've come a long way. You really have. I mean, the things you've done, what I wanna talk about is the, the subject matter that I talk about is our subconscious identity and our habits and our characteristics, psychologically ways of being you've created extraordinary success. You've got 60 employees. Your company is Zen, Zen marketing, right? Zen, media,

Shama: Zen Media. Mm-hmm that's right.

Jim Fortin: And just so people know what, what do you do,

Shama: Predominantly PRN marketing for, tech driven B2B brands.

Jim Fortin: Tech driven B2B brands. Okay.

Shama: Mostly B2B. Yeah.

Jim Fortin: Now you're probably then you might be, I don't know. You probably own the space. You would know this, not me because I, I didn't find anything. Even though I know you personally, I went to look last night for some things on you and I'm like, wow, I get to talk to her tomorrow.

Shama: Cool.

Jim Fortin: But what do you think is let's start generally first. What is your overall approach to business psychologically? How do you, how do you think about business?

Shama: Oh, my goodness. So, first of all, I must say, I'm so excited to sit down with you, Jim. And now I do remember this. I asked you to be on video because you were always such a natural, right? You've always been such a great communicator and, uh, funny that you should say that because I was a little early for TikTok, I guess, but it, that has fed so much in my career, and I've always been very grateful for the fact that I'm not a perfectionist. Like I've always been an editor at heart, and you always make it better, you know? And I, I love. Ship it because by the time you get something just right, the world has moved on, which I think is kind of interesting with like trends. Like we do so much with social media, you see like TikTok trends and whatnot. It's very fast. I mean, we live in a culture. And I feel like this is a big shift that's occurred. You know, we, we've gone from like monoculture to a very fragmented niche culture, and that's gonna continue to be the future where we have sort of these sub communities we have, you know, there's something for everyone, if you will. Right. So, so anyways, so back to your question, I think that's been a great, that's been a driving philosophy for me, which is get something out there and tweak it, edit, edit, edit, edit, but keep putting things out there. It's the consistency, right? Like that really makes a difference. So, I think that, you know, look, I started the business as to your point when I was very young. I have learned some tough lessons. It's very interesting. Just earlier today, I was talking to a, um, a prospect at, at like a, um, a breakfast meeting. And I, I mentioned to them, you know, when the company grew very quickly, when we first started the business, we hit a million in revenue in like less than three years. It was very rapid. Yeah. People responded really well to it. Um, my challenges were twofold. One, I didn't know anything about business. I knew a lot about what I knew about which is marketing and PR like how to build brands. My brain just naturally works that way. And again, I'm grateful for that, because I have very few gifts and that seems to be yeah, one of them. So, I, um, but I, you know, what business you, you remember Steph whose mm-hmm our president now and was my number one employee. Yeah. Um, like literally not just number my first employee in the right. Yeah. He's still with the company. And I, I remember, you know, a client asking like, what are your net terms. And I said, hold on a second. And I turned and I was like, what are net terms? I don't know that I never heard of it. And this is my Bueller moment. Right. But for business and, and she goes, it means when do we wanna get paid? And I was like, now I,

Jim Fortin: We need money.

Shama: We get paid now. Exactly. And so, she's like, say net seven. And I was like, she's like, I'll explain later, just say net seven. I was like, okay. Net seven. So, there's so that was one of the things. And then the other thing I think is the business out pieced my leadership abilities. You know, when one of my biggest challenges was like, you don't know what you don't know. So, I didn't grow up around a ton of business leaders and it wasn't funny enough, like 10 years ago, 50, it wasn't even like, it is now where you have so much access to information and you can learn and you have YouTube, like, yeah. Its information was not this available, even then. Yes, we had the internet, but. It's like, you don't know what you don't know. Right? Yeah. Um, and so I didn't know that. And so, for, for a while, after that crazy growth, we kind of plateaued because I was not the leader, I needed to be to get the company to the next level. It was only when I stopped and worked on that and said, how do I upscale? You know, how do I become a better leader? Cause to me, this sounded very fluffy, like, Ugh, leadership. Like it's something,

Jim Fortin: The buzzword buzz phrase.

Shama: Yeah. Word feels like authentic or whatever. Yeah. Gets thrown around. What does that mean to be a leader? Yeah. Um, and within that, there were a lot of nuances I'm happy to talk about of what I learned and what that meant. But then I found as I became a better leader, the company started to grow again.

Jim Fortin: Now, hang on to that. That's where I want to go in just a minute with you became a better leader before we go there. You said, and yes, skipped over it. You had some tough lessons. What, what was one of those tough lessons and how did you get past that?

Shama: Some of my key people leaving. So, I, I lost two of my, um, captains in the business, like people that I had a lot of respect for, because I couldn't be the leader that the business needed.

Jim Fortin: Okay.

Shama: So, um, you know, was very disappointing loss for me because it just, again, you don't know what you don't know, but again, you'll really appreciate the, the karmic lesson in all of this. Those two people came back to the company. Mm. And how rare is that? But as I worked on my, you know, leadership abilities and the big lesson for me, there was that not everyone is driven by the things that you were driven by. Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna say that again for people listening, because it's so simple, but it makes the world of difference. Jim, if you re, and I know, you know this, if you understand it, but like not everyone is driven by what you are driven by.

Jim Fortin: Yeah. Values.

Shama: Values. And so here I was thinking, you know, what are my two core values? I'll just tell you as a person, as a person, freedom, which I love freedom is yeah. It's air to me. Sure. Um, and I have a very high threshold for taking risks. Yeah. I don't have a very high, um, I'm not very fearful. I'm like whatever. I tried things that don't work. I try, you know, it's I said, I don't have the perfectionist gene. So, I'm not very scared to try things to do things. I mean, I've now key noted what? Six continents I guess Antarctica still waiting. Um, but I'm not scared to get up, to share my ideas. I've, you know, I've never been a fearful person now. I never stopped to think for a second that maybe other people don't have that risk tolerance that some people might actually like safety and security. Yeah. And are driven not by freedom, but by making a contribution by feel, you know? And so, these things to me were. It, it may sound so simple to perhaps some listeners as, as they're listening to this thinking. Well, like, wow. It took her that long to figure it out. But yeah, for me, it was a revelation because I saw the world through my lens. Of course, everyone is driven by what I'm driven by. Of course, they see it this way, but that was a big, um, you know, that was a big fallacy in my leadership style because I was treating everybody. As I wanted to be treated, and that is not the right lesson. Like I, you know, they tell you like that kindergarten, like treat everyone that,

Jim Fortin: right?

Shama: Yeah. No people wanna be treated the way they wanna be treated.

Jim Fortin: Unless they wanna be abused and you don't wanna abuse 'em because

Shama: Of course

Jim Fortin: I work for a communication expert and she's like, no, you treat people. Like they want to be treated in the way they want to be treated.

Shama: Absolutely.

Jim Fortin: Not the way that you wanna be treated.

Shama: Absolutely. And so, you know, I, one of the things that this is just a very small example, but, um, while I'm a very, I would say I practice gratitude a lot. I don't go around saying thank you to my team a lot. I do now. But before I didn't, because to me, if someone says, thank you many times, it feels a little patronizing, like, got it. Right. Just doing my job. Like you got it. Like that's cool. But there's plenty of people on my team who want to hear that a lot more than it feels natural for me to say but do like understanding this and making these small shifts has really elevated. My relationship with my team and our company overall.

Jim Fortin: So, let's go there for a moment. Hang on. Let's I'm interrupting to, to take that apart, please. It's I'm the same way as that. I don't need the external validation is I just do what I do. And, and a lot of times my team would, I hate to learn that my team is like, great job, great job. I'm like, I just did what I'm supposed to do. You know, this is what I do. Yeah. And I recognize after my first year in that my team needed the, the auditory verbal validation pat on the back, because that was literally part of their love language. Those are things they needed to function better. And it wasn't functioning just from my model of reality, but also functioning from their model of reality. So, I would say based upon the question I ask you a huge characteristic that you bring to business is flexibility. Does that, does that fit? Does that make sense?

Shama: Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's flexibility is, um, is key and, you know, look, every company at some point is going to be reflective of their leaders' values, right? Yeah. Like culture starts from top down. And so, we've been, for example, remote for 15 years, we've never had an office. Well, I take that back. We've tried it. We've tried like micro versions of that. We've never had an office where everyone had to come in. Right. But we just always, I've always wanted, we were doing it before was popular. People would say, oh, where's your office. And I would joke. And I would say it's in the cloud. And they would legit say, is that uptown.

Jim Fortin: Well, I guess it could be uptown.

Shama: Yeah. I was like way uptown, like way, way up, you know? Cause this is before pandemic before. Remote working was, you know, attractive or whatnot. But yeah, flexibility has been, I would see a big cornerstone, even how we do things, you know, I like, again, things I needed to learn because I am such a, and perhaps this is indicative of my millennialism, but I'm a very flat org structure type person. I don't enjoy hierarchy. I don't like oozing it on other people. Yeah. Um, I don't know if you knew this, but I think this is one of the, the fascinating thing about Tesla is in Tesla when someone starts, you bring your phone to work that you have brought in. Yeah. And they put 24 apps on your phone, and you have access to the entire company's data on your phone. You see why someone rejected an order, you see any issue and you are encouraged to take any issue that you see and start solving it. So, there's no department. There's no like there's no, you just, you find a problem where you think you can. Add value and you go solve it. Right. So, I come, I love that they actually have a rule called two feet rule, meaning you can use your two feet to walk over and yeah. And approach anything you wanna approach. So, but you know, I've had to find a balance because again, not everyone thrives with that. Um, flexibility is very attractive to some people. And then for other folks, it can feel like there's no guardrails.

Jim Fortin: Yeah. So, let's take this apart a little bit. It's I hear a lot in here and you you've obviously built a very successful business. I hear the answer in here, but I'm curious about your answer. If somebody said Shama, what is your identity as a businesswoman? And you had to synopsize that, what would your identity be?

Shama: My identity genuinely today is a student. I mean, if you, like you see, what's the first word that comes to mind, I'd say student, because I've known I've always had this mentality towards my profession, marketing and PR changes very quickly. So, if you're not a student we're already losing because every day there's something new. Like you have to keep learning. If you're not learning, you're getting behind. It's just the nature of, of the industry. But also with student, as I'm constantly learning from my team, from our clients as a leader, like if there was anything I could put on my desk, it would be like work in progress. You know, I that's how I feel. I feel like my identity is work in progress. It's also been interesting Jim, with my, you know, I identified so strongly as an entrepreneur, but becoming a mother. I had to look at that from a different lens too. Yeah. Um, and I, I had to kind of initially when I had my son, I thought that I would take some time off. Right. Maternity leave. It's quite a popular concept. I'm told. Yeah. yeah. You're supposed to bond your child and so forth. So here I was all excited. I was like, I'm gonna do this. My team's they're super prepared. They're excited about it. I get to bond with this creature. Um, that? Uh, yeah, and I had my son, it was, it was an experience. I, um, ended up having an emergency C-section with him. So, there were some health challenges, all, all went well. Um, gratitude to the doctors and staff and everyone at the hospital. So, everything happens, you know, babies born. And literally the next day I'm sitting in the hospital. I called my mom. I said, bring my laptop. And it's not because I had to work, but I immediately realized that I was gonna be a very poor mother. If that is all that I was going to do.

Jim Fortin: What made you realize that?

Shama: Because I looked at this little creature and I was like, if all I get to do is feed this baby and cuddle with this baby and sleep when he sleeps, whatever, I'm just gonna lose my mind like this isn’t, you know, raising children yeah. Is very rewarding. I love being a mom. Wouldn't treat it for anything, but it is not for me as intellectually stimulating as what I do, like part of why we do B2B clients and why we kind of settle on to that was because B2B requires more sophistication, like, and like J Lo's newest perfume. Anyone can take that in market that right. Or like it's fairly. Okay. It's B2C. You gotta broad go do something fun. Yeah. When you're doing B2B, especially tech and it's like cyber security or SAS, or like deep tech, it requires a very, it requires more creativity. You've gotta have like. So, it takes a lot more to market that and to get creative and to get attention at that level than it does for like Cheetos or general product name, your pick.

Jim Fortin: So, okay. Hang, hang on. Hang, hang on. Yeah. Yeah. Number one. This is extremely valuable, but a place that a lot of women go to, which I don't think you did, which I know they want to hear from you is many women feel guilty going back to work or doing their career after they become a mother you're saying that, how did you manage that is what I want the people hearing that that applies to, how did you manage? Not having guilt about, oh my gosh. But they think, they think they're a bad mother. If they go back to work or they're doing things, they're a bad mother. If they're not a mother 24/ 7. Yes. How did you, how did you navigate that?

Shama: Um, great, great question, Jim. And I will tell you, I have those moments a lot less. I would be lying if I said, oh, I never feel guilty. That would make me somehow robotic. And I just, yeah, I think mom guilt is very real because part of it is you gotta keep those kids alive. So, if you don't feel like, like you, right? Like if you feel nothing, there might be some like test you should take to see like where you are on the sociopathic scale, because let's face it there's you, everyone has their moments. But for me, I think it was honestly the realization. So, when I'm, I'm loving my son and I'm feeding him and I'm doing all these things, but I was like, but I have more like energy. I have more to offer. Like, if this is, I'm not a very happy mommy right now, because if he's look, I need more, I need my brain to be more active. I'm used to a very fast paced, intellectually speaking. Mm-hmm, uh, um, a certain level of rigor if you will. So, I found myself immediately missing that. And so, I didn't go back to work with a sense of, oh my God, I need to like fix something, or I need to distract myself. It was, I really am a better mom because I get to do what I love.

Jim Fortin: Understood.

Shama: I love for them in a better way. Now I will say this. I think everybody's different. I know there are mothers who don't feel that way, who feel so nice to have that time with their children. And they're so like they're, this is the other thing I learned about motherhood, which I also think is true about business. There's not necessarily a right way. There's only the way that works for you. Mm-hmm right. Like, I, that, that was a big lesson for me. I also think I was very lucky that I had an amazing mother-in-law um, bless her soul. She just passed away and an amazing sister-in-law. So, I remember going to my mother-in-law and saying, so here's, here's the other thing I'll share. Very honestly, I did not fall in love with my son when he was born.

Jim Fortin: I've heard that. Go ahead please.

Shama: No, and it was a very, I was so disappointed in myself because I felt like I don't love this baby, right? Yeah. Like I, I remember telling my husband, I was like, how I'm supposed to love him more than I love you, but I don't like, I didn't, you know, you hear all these stories, like common media and everything is like, you hold your kid. There are fireworks. Like everything melts away, all your pain is gone. You're just in this blissful heaven of like, right.

Jim Fortin: Yeah.

Shama: You know, so there's like, but I didn't feel any of these things. And I wanna be really clear here. I was not suffering from postpartum. I was very lucky. I didn't have those challenges. I was not depressed. I felt fine. I just didn't feel this overwhelming attachment or this like the fireworks weren't there for me. Right. So, I wanted my mother-in-law, and I was like, I don't understand. Aren't I supposed to like, love your grandson or life itself. And she said, honey, don't you worry? You're taking, you're doing a great job. You're taking care of him. You're feeding him. You're doing fine. Don't put that much pressure on yourself. My sister-in-law same thing. She was like, she has two kids around. She's like doing great. So, I think having that support system of people being like, there's nothing wrong with you. Like you are being a great mother. You're taking care of this child. You can't force yourself to feel whatever you think you're supposed to be feeling.

Jim Fortin: Yeah.

Shama: Now I can honestly say I love my son today. I think he's the best thing since sliced bread. You know, I think I love my, this was so cool because I, I, I stole this from Ryan Reynolds, and he said this about Blake Lively. He said, I love my wife. But I, you know, and I would, I would take my, a bullet for my wife, but today, if someone was gonna hurt our kids, I would use my wife as a shield. wow. Protect my children and I out, like I filled out I, I get that. So, it didn't come immediately. I think my son was about six or seven, seven months before I started to really feel that attachment, that connection I never had, my love was a very slow burn with my children. It was not the fireworks, but it was no less genuine or

Jim Fortin: Right.

Shama: No less heartfelt. Like I don't love my kids any less than any other mother loves them. But I, what I learned about this was that motherhood happens to us in different ways. And I like sharing this because I think we do need to de-stigmatize. How people show up to be moms. I think if someone decides to take time away from work and be with their kids, we should applaud that if a mom decides to go back to work, we should applaud that there's no right way to be a mother.

Jim Fortin: Yeah.

Shama: And I think it's very true for business. People really beat, beat themselves up women, more than men. Jim, I find this to be true where if you're not growing at a certain level, you're not doing certain things. They feel like, oh, I should, I should be more. I should do more. And you know, I, I tell, I tell all moms this. I said, listen, cause I people ask me like, how do you do it? You do all this stuff. I said, no, no, no, don't get me wrong. There are days where I am a kick ass mom. Yeah. And there are days where I'm a kick ass CEO. Those days being the same day. Is a very rare occurrence. right. Let's be really clear. I have days where I'm an amazing mom. I feel really great. I'm like, man, give this mom an award I left.

Jim Fortin: Right.

Shama: And there are days where I feel great about my leadership and I'm doing, you know, I'm really feel like I I'm doing great work, but do I feel that every day? NO, but I think that's, that's the thing we have to let go of is that you're gonna somehow show up and be a winner across every sport that you were expected to play in life because it just doesn't happen. Like look, some days I'm just happy to take home. The bronze with my kids. Like I showed up, I was good enough. I tucked them in bed is the best I could do. And other days I'm, you know, I do a much better job.

Jim Fortin: There's two comments here. I'm hearing this. There's a, the theme in here is that you're living your life your way is what works for you. And that applies to motherhood, being a, a dad, a parent, or in business, and you have found, I mean, you've created extraordinary success, and I think that's an overwriting theme. You've created the success partially by doing it your way, talking about having a virtual office 15 years ago, when everyone else the professional people would say, Shama, that's wrong. You shouldn't do it that way. Mm-hmm, you know, that's not right. And now look where you are and they're working for you. So, to speak metaphorically.

Shama: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I, I love the, I love what you recap, Jim, and you're absolutely right. I think it's very important. Here's the thing. It's nice to have success, but I think it's much sweeter to have success your way, you know, when you feel like you really did it without sacrificing again, what's your ideals are. And for me, like the freedom, flexibility, and you'll attract like-minded people. That's the other thing, the people who come work for us, they like working for a woman owned company. They like being able to pick up their kids and, you know, be there for them when they come home from school, they like the flexibility it offers, and we are able to attract really good talent. I think because of that, because it, it sheds with them know it's not right for everybody. Look, there's plenty of people who would do better in an office. Like my husband needs to go into an office. Like he, yes, he needs to go. He's like, this is home, that's a work. Like I need the delineation and I completely respect and get that. So, I think just, it's very important to find what works for you and not let, I think this is the other thing where I would say I've gotten better at, and I do same thing. Like everything else, like there's days I'm better at it. There are days I'm worse. But I think it's so important to learn how to tune out the noise. Yeah. Like I don't people think I spend a lot more time on social media than I do genuinely. Like I don't, I don't scroll through Instagram. I don't look through Facebook. I spend the majority of my energy creating content that I think would genuinely resonate with our audience. Things that are useful, that are helpful. But I I'm. I'm very, that is one thing I am, I will say like, almost militant about is how I use my energy and what I consume.

Jim Fortin: This is huge. And before a couple of comments here, before we go on, as I noticed, maybe seven, eight years ago, you had this, you were one of the first people that hit 5,000 followers on, you know, what friends or whatever on Facebook. Yeah. I remember when I was a client and Facebook would let you set up your own face, like, you know, like at our name and you had like eight computers set up in your office at night. So, you could all of your clients, you could get our names on Facebook, and I remember that. And I remember also that one day I'm like, wait, we're Shama. She's like a social media, Maven marketing Maven. And she's like got 300, she's got 27 followers. Now what happened? And I think you metaphorically, I think you scraped what I call scraping a lot of your stuff and got rid of all the fluff and things that weren't really serving where you wanted to go. That's one comment. Secondly, hang on. Is you talked about women blamed themselves or harder on themselves than men. And some research done. Women were given puzzles that were not solvable, and men were given the same puzzle that was not solvable. Men came to the conclusion. It must be the puzzle. Women came to the conclusion it must be me. There's something wrong with me. And I think women have been, culturalized bring that partially to work into their existence. That it's, it's, I'm broken, there's something wrong with me. I'm not doing something right. And I think they bring it to business and to life.

Shama: For sure. I think, yeah, you're absolutely right. So, I am much more judicious about how I use. My social platforms, what I do, um, what kind of content I create. And part of it is standing out from the noise. Like, you know, I, my, I focus a lot on LinkedIn. I think genuinely, as far as platforms go, I think there's a lot of value there.

Jim Fortin: There's it's um, wait, wait, now, hang on. We're gonna hear going, but aren't you considered one of the top 10 influencers on LinkedIn now?

Shama: Yes, I guess. Yeah. For a few years they're running. They, they kept putting me on the list. I have like 620,000 followers and subscribers or whatever you call, wanna call it there. But I like that platform. So, you know, I I'm, I don't post as much on Facebook. I like LinkedIn right now. And look, it always ebbs and flows tomorrow. It's gonna be another platform. Right. But I don't get caught up in that either. I just look at what can I use right now to get my content out there. Distribution. I think this is an important takeaway. Don't focus so much on. Nothing that you do today is gonna be forever. Nothing, nothing that's trending right now is gonna keep trending four years from now, four months from now, right? You just have to take advantage of whatever opportunities in front of you like right now. Um, same thing a client asked me, they're having a launch event and he said, is it better to do videos or images right now? And I said, look right now videos. And because there was kind of a D you know; two partners were trying to decide, and they both had differing opinions and they asked me to be the tie breaker. And I said videos because they said, listen, you asked me a year ago. I would've said pictures because images are getting so much more plain algorithm right now. It's reels. Yes. Short, short reels, vertical videos. That's the buzz. So, you want that, that's what you're gonna do. So, I think part of that is that you have to play to wherever, you know, the social currents are flowing at the moment, if you will. So, so yes, I, I have been a lot more judicious in terms of where I spend my time and, and having kids also really does that, like, that's the thing. I don't have a minute to waste or to just sit there and, you know, I, I do, I feel like it's made me a lot more efficient as, as a leader.

Jim Fortin: Yeah. So, a couple more questions I know, do you have a call on the hour, another one? Okay. I won't keep too much longer. I know that we are running a little behind. Um, one of my team members asked me to ask you, which is something that I focus on a lot because its brain based, literally scientific is we don't get what we want in life. We get our habits and whatever habits we have, obviously determine our behavior, determine our outcome. What would you say are your three predominant habits? And of course, we can go motherhood or business. Let's go there. First business. What are your three predominant habits?

Shama: I think there's a lot of overlaps, so we'll, we'll keep it simple. I love, I love that you say that. I love the question from your team member. So, thank you for whoever came up with this.

Jim Fortin: Monica came up with that habit.

Shama: Awesome. Great job, Monica. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome question. So, I would say you don't get what you want in life. You do get your habits and I take it a step further. You get your rackets,

Jim Fortin: Yeah. That's landmark for me. You get the rackets, you run.

Shama: Okay. Yeah. I don't know what landmark I've heard of it, but I don't, I'm not familiar with them

Jim Fortin: It's the stories and the rackets we get in, they call 'em rackets also the rackets.

Shama: Oh, interesting. So, I'll, I'll tell you my definition of, of a racket. And I actually borrowed this from my, a good friend, Tom Todoroff. Who's an amazing acting coach. Um, I did his workshop by the way. I'm not, I'm not acting, but I just, I love learning and that's, that's a big part of it. So, there's your habit. Number one, I love learning. Like I'm always learning, investing, no investment in yourself is ever wasted. Like I if I wanna buy a book, I'll buy it. If I wanna work with someone, I'll do it. I never think twice about it. Because even if I get one idea that betters my life, what's that worth

Jim Fortin: Agreed. A thousand percent.

Shama: People get so picky. And like, they're like, no, all you need is one thing that's gonna make your life better. And like that, that's a, so, yeah, exactly. So, so I think part of that. Is yes. Learning and doing things and, um, constantly, you know, um, saying yes to learning opportunities. The second is the rackets. What, what I was talking about. So, a racket borrowing my, my friend Tom's definition is things we put up with because we just do so a racket is anything from a leaky faucet that you're like, ah, the thing's bothering me, but you never really don't do anything about it. Or it can be something much more extreme, like a partner that's not really supportive of what you're doing and is always undermining or like, you know, it's just, it's negative energy in your world, but you're just putting up with it for whatever reason.

Jim Fortin: So, let me, let me clarify. So, you actually were saying one of your habits is not to put up with rackets.

Shama: Absolutely. I don't put up with rackets and that is across the board and I, um, I'm, I'm gonna try to think of a good, good example for you. Um, and again, they can be small rackets and luckily, I I'm at a point in my life where I don't have a lot of big rackets, so that's good. You know,

Jim Fortin: That's good. Yeah.

Shama: Literally people have got some big rackets. It's like, you gotta, you gotta take care of that, like little rackets though. Those are the things that really add up. Yeah. And a little racket could be like, you know, my computer chair, ah, this great example. My wheel was broken on the computer chair and every day I'm like shifting it. I'm putting something under it just to get work done, you know? Cause it's little enough, right. It doesn't bother me enough to like immediately to go get another chair. But those things add up. And now every day, I'm spending a little time in my day annoyed, even if it's just for a few seconds now I'm shifting myself. I gotta like to drag the chair, but it's such an easy fix. Just get another chair. That's it. That's all I have to do is get another chair and the racket is gone. So, I try to minimize rackets anything that is another way to think about it is minimize friction.

Jim Fortin: Okay. Very good. I haven't heard it that way before. Very good. And I know you hang around some smart people, so that's yeah.

Shama: Minimizing friction is a big one because it's always like, I don't, this is a, this is a funny habit that, um, one of my friends has and who will not be named, but she always fills up her, her gas tank halfway.

Jim Fortin: That's a poverty habit. I used to have it. Go ahead. Yeah.

Shama: But yes. So, she grew up in a power, you know, in a, in a, a poor community. She's not poor anymore.

Jim Fortin: Right.

Shama: Yet. For her, but it's a racket. Cause I'm like, girl, you gotta go back to the pop to feel like, just fill it up all the way. So, you don't gotta make two rounds. Right? Yeah. And here's the thing, it's a racket. If it bothers you, if you're not bothered by it. Cool. Like if it somehow makes you feel good to run twice to the gas station, more power to you, you know, like enjoy your coffee, whatever, but she hates it. She's always, oh man, I gotta fill gas again. I'm out. And I'm like, well, if you just filled it up right. So, so it seems like that, that we put up with, sometimes we even take pride in this friction. Because we feel like it somehow makes us better people for overcoming this. Yeah.

Jim Fortin: Ego gratification, Uh huh,

Shama: You have great words for these. I just have like what

Jim Fortin: Well, this is kind of what I get paid for. So, I have to have words for, and if not, I gotta make the words up, but that's what it is psychologically is ego gratification. We get some reward for doing it the way that we do it, even if the racket doesn't help us, but we think it helps us. Mm-hmm okay. That's a good one. And then one more. And then I, I actually, two more questions, but okay. That's two. What's your third.

Shama: I'm supposed to give you one more. Um, I'm good about being in the moment and being where my feet are. So right now, I'm with you, Jim, you have a hundred percent of my attention. My kids are downstairs. I can hear them and I'm with them. I will be with them a hundred percent. Now I wanna be really clear that this is a practice. It's not something where I'm not superhuman. It's not something I can always do. There are certainly moments where I'm with my kids and I'm like, okay, I gotta get this slack message answered. Cause the team is waiting. Yeah. I'm not perfect at it. But I try and especially cause my kids are at that age right now where I know I will never get this back. And I tell my husband, I feel like its sand slipping through my fingers. And even as I talk about this, my eyes are, you know, filling with tears because nothing gets to me like, like knowing that this is such a short period in my life, and I will never have it again. I think we're happy with two kids, you know, we're as a family, we feel more or less complete. So, I know like right there, this is time is passing by. So that is a habit that I continuously work on. So, I just wanna be really clear. I don't want people to be like, wow, she's presented all the time. Wherever. Like, no, no, but I try, I really make a concerted effort because I feel like if you don't, it doesn't happen.

Jim Fortin: I, I don't have anything to add. I mean, that's really good. There are a lot of questions I wanted to ask you and you're answering a lot of them vicariously through your answers. But two more of that I think are, are, are, are universal. And a lot of people want to know. Number one is so many people right now, I'm starting to do more work in this area I have for a lot of years, you and I knew each other when we were just starting out. Mm-hmm, tell you a secret, the biggest mistake I ever made. I don't know one of the biggest in business, and I don't know if I'd fit your profile anymore, but I used to work from impatience. I used to be a tactical person. You worked strategy. And I stopped working with you six months in that was a stupid fricking decision because I look back and I'm like, where would my business be now? Had I, I stayed with her 7, 8, 10 years or whatever. I'm like, you're. I'd be one of the top three brands in the world for what I do.

Shama: Well, I think you'll get there regardless. So, for what it's worth,

Jim Fortin: I'm still doing well, I'm doing better than most brands, you know, I'm doing well.

Shama: You are doing Great. But you know, I'm like, I will say this, Jim. I think the reason that you're also doing really well is because you are very heart centered and you always been very heart centered. So, while you may say it like, oh, I was tactical, look, you're talking about you. And every other business in the country, I get it. I'm yeah. I'm the, you know, it's very easy to talk this talk. There's plenty of times I have to stop myself and be like, all right, let's big picture here. Right? Like, yeah. Let's, let's be real, but you're very heart centered. You always genuinely cared about people. You, regardless of how you've ever felt in the moment, I've never known you to be less than professional compassionate. You, you generally walk your talk. You've given people second chances. You, you know, you, I know people like listening. There's often like a question about, especially, I'll say this because you probably are. And I use this word like, like in quotes, but you probably are a quote unquote guru to people, you know, they look up to you. Yeah. Like I know you might not be a big fan of the term. I get it. But I think it's important for folks to know. Cause I've known you for so long in, in, so in, from many different perspectives is that you are, you're the real deal. And I guys, I don't get paid to say this as you get to, Jim's not a current client or anything. I just, you are the real deal. And I think that if you, you know, your podcast has been so successful, you've attracted obviously global attention. I think a big part of that is people resonate with that. But if there's people listening, they're like, is that really? Yeah, guys, I, I just wanna say that you you've always been the real deal and I think that's because you come from a very heart centered place and you've always cared about not just what you're sharing, but how it impacts the people that you're sharing it with. Like you care about that. It's not just been about like, this is my message, and this is what I wanna get out to the masses. You've cared about that follow up loop, which is how is this impacting them? Are they actually able to take this and, and use it and better their lives?

Jim Fortin: I don't know what to say. and that's fair for either you or I do not have anything to say, but I, I just, I love you. And I honor that and a couple of questions, these will resonate is so many people are chasing, which you and I have. I remember Arsel and I talking one day, a lot of years ago, we're sitting outside, and I think you and John were in the restaurant finishing up something. Okay. And Arsel like, Dude, where's all this money coming from that she's creating. And you were already starting to generate revenue. Mm-hmm to me, millions of dollars come into my life. They come into your life. What's your perspective or view on because so many people do it backwards. They try to chase money because they want the money that's in my opinion, not how to create it. What's your view on manifestation of, of, of monetary wealth.

Shama: Wow. Um, that's a, yeah, that's a great question. And I will say, I think there's work that I have done there too, Jim, because when I was younger, it was about hitting numbers, you know? Yeah. Part of it and look in business numbers are good metric to see if business is healthy. Like it's good to have certain KPIs.

Jim Fortin: Right? Sure.

Shama: It's, it's even motivating for teams. Like, you know, the numbers are there for a reason, but I think I, part of it is I view money very differently now than I did when I was younger and listen, when you are younger, much of your perspective on money and finances is based on your, your community and your family. Like what you consider rich and how you even feel about wealth is very much, it it's what you were raised with, right?

Jim Fortin: Like identity.

Shama: Um, it's like Patrick, my husband always jokes. He says, um, you know, there are no religious children, just religious parents. Yeah. Because, and I think it's true about money. So, um, I'll, I'll share this little antidote too. Patrick comes from a single mother childhood, um, family childhood, who was a punk rocker who grew up in Oregon. And if you're familiar with like that area or the ethos, there is very much, a lot of negativities associated with well well-off people. Mm. Like there's you weren't. So, he has actually had to fight a lot of his, um, Mindsets, because even when our son was born, he said, you know, I'm gonna have to figure out how to be okay with having he called it a rich kid, cause he is like, I always hated rich kids. Mm.

Jim Fortin: Interesting.

Shama: But his, and so it's now rich is a very relative term obviously, but his son is obviously a lot more well off than he was when he was born. Right. Cause he is born to a more or less wealthy parents, mom. Like there's a lot, there's a lot of, um, variables there. And so, I share this because I think it's money in your relationship with money is also one of those things that you continuously have to reevaluate. Mm-hmm if you don't, you just take certain things for granted either way and so something that Patrick and I do is we often ask ourselves these questions and were we examine our beliefs, like, is this serving me? You know? And so, for, in Patrick's case, and I shared this because I think it's, it's very relevant to a lot of people. Um, it was, is this serving me to believe, right? Like I have this belief,

Jim Fortin: right? Yeah.

Shama: That, you know, rich kids are a certain way, or they feel like blah, blah, blah, or whatnot. So as a family, our views around money are very much the good that it allows us to do in the community. Cause if you think about, and you know, I'm, I'm a big fan of capitalism. I think it's, there's a lot of systems out there. I personally, personally feel like of all the things of all our choices that we have pretty right now's perfect. But it's high up there. So, when you when you have something like that, I think. You look at money, not just as a thing to have as a value exchange, but as a lever to make the difference that you wanna make in the world.

Jim Fortin: That's exactly what I say. And we've not talked for a few years. That's exactly. Money's a tool to help me make the world a better place.

Shama: Yeah. And you put it towards what you believe in. And so that's the thing when people get upset about something, because I, I, I think capitalism has a good lot of good. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I'm able to say, hey, you know, the reason there are people in power who make certain decisions is because they can choose where they wanna allocate their resources.

Jim Fortin: Absolutely.

Shama: And money is a resource and. And it doesn't have to be in the grand scheme. I'm not talking like Bill Gates level. You can do that for your own community. You can do that for your own family. You can do that for, you know, to take care of like for Patrick and me, and I think you remember this, Jim is, you know, I, I love dogs. We love, love dogs. Yeah. I have a giant schnauzer and so we do a lot of rescue work and the amount of dogs we've been able to rescue and help. And its a, it's a very, um, it makes me there's no way it makes me feel very happy. Right. We're able to do so much. And, um, you know, there's times where some, because they know where dog lovers, like someone will send me a GoFundMe and it'll have like, however, you know, dollars missing and I'll just fill it up and they'll be like, oh my God, you just saved this dog. It's like such a big deal, but we're able to use those resources to do good. So, I'll tell you. One of my dreams is to one day have a rescue, um, you know, for, for dogs, like I have a whole plan. I'm very excited about it every year. I'm like, Patrick, we should do this. And like, not yet just we have other things to do, but so that's the thing. You, when you have money, when you have resources, you get to choose where you're gonna deploy it to help who you want and do better because look, you know, we're not taking anything with us, right? None of it.

Jim Fortin: Nope.

Shama: We don't take anything. So, it's just more in the here and now what can we do for our communities? How can we help our, you know what I consider, like, not just even our inner circle, but the, and I include like our community employees, people that I feel like were responsible for their wellbeing and money allows us to be good stewards for our communities. And so that's my view of money now, versus when I was younger, it was very different. I will say this also, this is a very funny thing about moving to Miami. I have had more than one. Um, girlfriend is a girlfriend who will say almost in a whisper, right? Like your husband does well. Like why do you still work? Like, why don't you just stay with the kids? And I get it, the question is coming from a good place. And so aside from the fact that I've had a career long before I met him and, and so forth, I still find that to be, to be funny because I'm like, it's not, I don't do what I do today for the money.

Jim Fortin: Right.

Shama: It's nice. I'll take it. Listen. It's always better for the good guys to have it than the bad guys.

Jim Fortin: Correct.

Shama: Like, someone's gonna take that money. The good guys should take it. Cause we're rescuing dogs. We're doing good with it because otherwise someone else is taking it. We're not such great purposes. So, um, like to me, you know, I do what I do because I love it. And yeah, I continue to see money as a lever to, to be the difference to make the difference that you want in the world.

Jim Fortin: Yeah, that's what I tell people. And you, and I, I know you love dogs. And I always said, which I'll never do. I'll never retire, but if I retired, I want to open a dog rescue and I've looked into it. I looked at buying some land one time in Colorado and, and already had kennels on it. I'm like, there's my dream, the dog emergency rescue. And I can rehab, oh,

Shama: Jim, I will let you know. I'll keep you posted. Yeah. I keep looking for property up in Homestead, which is like north, you know, um, north Miami, there's a lot of farm and acreage there. I have a whole plan. I'm like, we're gonna get veterinarians from Latin America, right. Pay for their education. And then in exchange, they give us two years of the rescue, cause a part of, part of the rescues. You gotta have veterinary services and that's the kind of stuff that, you know, really adds up. It's not putting the dogs and letting them run

Jim Fortin: Right, right. So, you're, you're, you're what I call and what I heard Oprah say using your life. And you're using it well. Oh, okay. I was gonna ask one more, but I won't. But, um, okay.

Shama: So, what you'll ask me now, I'm curious, what were you gonna ask?

Jim Fortin: OK. We gotta keep it a little short. I gotta call in 14 minutes, but gratitude you've mentioned it. And Don Xavier said to me, one time, he goes, you're grateful for all the money that comes into your life, but you're not grateful for how easily it comes into your life because it flows. And I know that you're a spiritualist, even if you don't call yourself that you are, you're very plugged in. How do you approach gratitude?

Shama: Oh man, much more in the micro than the macro meaning, like I don't make lists of things I'm GRA grateful for. I know some people prefer to do that or they sit down, and they think about that meditate on it. I just, the same practice that I was telling you about where I try to be really present. I try to infuse also with gratitude, like, as I'm holding my son, I just feel such gratitude for having, you know, a healthy baby boy and like seeing him, you know, the fact that he can be as naughty as he is. Right. Because it's like this, like that's a gift. Yeah. It's you know, and then, um, I just have to tell you this one story, because I think you'll really appreciate, and it's funny. So, Patrick and I both being entrepreneurs and, um, and kind of marching at the beat of our own drummers. We have, we procreated and reproduced. All our bad traits into this little guy. so he is, um, he mentioned he's three and they had a St. Jude triathlon at the school. Mm-hmm, which is these little kids and they're little bike, you know, little trikes, really cute. They, they blocked off like a couple of parking spots and they're supposed to go in a circle, and they're supposed to take their bike and they follow this little circuit. Now, of course, it's my kid that turns his bike around and is going counterclockwise. And I'm like, oh my God. And so, for the first few times I keep turning his bike cause I'm like, buddy, like, everyone's like there's moms, there's kids. Like what are you doing? You gotta turn around. And then after a while I was like, you know, this is not helping cause his brain is wired some way and it's his gift and I'm, I'm trying to rewire that. Wow. So, I just stood by him, and I just kept apologizing and making room. I said, I'm so sorry. I'm looking street. So, I like, I get away with that. Right. I'm like, sorry, sorry. And he's so happy. Like he doesn't care about the other kids giving him weird looks. He doesn't care that he's about to like, he's just happily going counter. I took a video cause Patrick wasn't there. I said, this is what we made. Just so. Well, I

Jim Fortin: I'm glad that you saw that he's doing his own thing, which is what you're actually, I'm gonna use the word preaching in a good way is you gotta do it. So, in other words, you're being a hypocritical mom, because you were saying you gotta, what was okay that he's doing it his own way and you're saying no, don't do it that way.

Shama: Exactly. Yeah. And he took me a few because I kept turning his, you know, cause for me. I don't care about how the other kids like are looking at him and, and we're very much like a family that does their own thing, you know? We're. Yeah. Like I said, we try to drown out much of that noise, but I was more concerned like, oh my God, he's gonna run into another kid. He's like, you know, like everyone's going in the flow. And this kid is like, yeah, it was more like a safety thing. But afterwards I was like, you know what, then I just need to give him more guardrails and do it with him. But not if he's so happy going this way, then let's, there's something fundamentally in him that does not care about going the way of the crowd. And I was like, if I love it at this point, I was like, what am I reinforcing for him? Right. It's it's funny cause it wasn't even like a teaching moment, but I, in my, it's almost like an intuitive nudge. Like yeah, he doesn’t keep turning his bike around because he, this is him being true to himself. Yeah. And if I keep doing that, then I'm going to remove whatever part of him doesn't care about going with the crowd. Like eventually, right. He will learn that I need to do what everyone else is doing because when I do my own thing, it's not appreciated.

Jim Fortin: Right. But don't take it away, let him be him and then let him, yeah. Let him be him

Shama: Guardrails. Right. Cause he's so little. So, it's still like, all right, well, you know, you can be you, but not at the cost of like running other little children over like

Jim Fortin: Exactly.

Shama: We draw the line there.

Jim Fortin: Yeah. yes, no, I, I agree. Um, where, where is it best because I have a lot of B’s, B to C, a lot of listeners. Where could I most benefit you in directing people from this podcast to find you, or to follow you in some way, there will be B2B people. No question. A lot of people that are corporate that are B2B and they, they are upper level or whatever in their companies, where's the best place to direct them to find.

Shama: Uh, sure. Jim, I mean, look, I'm, I'm happy to connect on social sites. Like I said, I, I published more on LinkedIn than anything else. If you do connect with me, there and you put in the note, you know, Jim's name then I'll know to, because I get it's such a barrage, but if I see your name, then I'll, then I'll know that they were listeners and we will connect on a, you know, a different different level. Um, and then look, zenmedia.com. That's where the team has done a tremendous job creating content over. I mean, we have over 15 years of content, we do a really good job, whether you're B2B or B2C, but understanding like modern buyers. So, if you're in like that marketing space, you're trying to grow brands. I think there's something there for everybody, whether you're B2B or B2C. Um, so that would be a good place if we just wanna look at the look at some of the content and, um, and learn,

Jim Fortin: Well, I want to add there. I'm gonna use the word most, but most content out there is garbage.

Shama: True.

Jim Fortin: Your content is extremely. I read it. I'm like, whoa, she knows what she's doing. thank it's. Your content is trend setting. It's ahead of the curve. And you're always ahead of the curve. And I would suggest a couple of people like for gorilla marketing, a good friend of mine, Rich Schefren he's more in the trenches. I've known Rich for a lot of years. I hired Rich as a consultant to you guys are working different marketplaces, but I always refer him. And I talk about you a lot on things that I do because the content is that good and the wisdom and the advice and the leadership. And then for those that are at the place to do it, then obviously reach out to your company. So Shama it's been. Been of last. Thank you. I owe you. So, thank you.

Shama: I know. Thank you for having me, Jim. This was wonderful. Um, and I apologize. It's probably rare that a podcast guest keeps wanting to, you know, or maybe it's not, they like chatting with you. So no, usually I, I, like I said, I'm pretty militant with my time and I'm like, all right, that's our, but I just, you know, we, we go way back. I really enjoyed this conversation. You always ask such insightful questions and look, I've done over a thousand podcasts probably by, at this, by this point. Um, but what I, what I love about you and the way you ask questions too, is again, you're coming from that very heart centered place. And I think it is a rare interviewer that leaves you feeling like you've learned something about yourself through the process, right? So, it's like the triple win. Like of course you get your guest, but hopefully your audience got something of value. But even as the guest, I feel like I got a lot of value out of the questions that you're asking and the insight that you're, you're providing and reflecting. So, thank you so much for that.

Jim Fortin: Well, a team's gonna send you more because I live by a phrase called AYNI and I thank you for saying thank you. AYNI is Reciprocity in Life. Mm-hmm. So, the team's gonna be reaching out and sending you a gift card to your favorite restaurant or thank you. I made a note or something dog related. One of the two or maybe both. I don't know yet.

Shama: Awesome. Well, I really appreciate that. I'm happy. I'm always happy to share. Um, my favorite rescue, you know, that's always a good, good start.

Jim Fortin: We're gonna reach out so you can guarantee you can guarantee it on that I'm here. If you need anything, have a good day with the kids and I'll talk to you later.

Shama: Okay? All right. Much love

Jim Fortin: Give me a hug.

Shama: Thank you, byebye. Bye.

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