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You're listening to the Transform your Life from the Inside Out podcast. This is an interview in this particular episode, and I'm having an interview with Gary Zukav. The title of this episode is Gary Zukav Interview Part One. Now, if you don't know who Gary Zukav is, his last name is Z U K A V. Gary was on back around November or so. Gary actually, as I said, if you don't know who he is, Gary was the most frequented guests to the Oprah Winfrey show. As a matter of fact, Oprah had Gary back 36 times. Oprah has even said that if it wasn't for Gary, she wouldn't have created what she created with her show and the impact that she's made in the world. Gary and I become personal friends. I love the man. He's an amazing, amazing individual. And in this episode, which is one of four episodes that we're doing together, plus I'll do four more and taking those episodes apart and digging even further, this will be an eight-part series, but in this particular episode, we talk about what I consider to be profound, spiritual concepts. We talk about physical reality. Non-physical reality. We talk about multisensory experience. We talk about which one of my sisters-in-law asked me to ask him. I already knew the answer, but I wanted to ask him because I told her I would, we talked about where he gets his guidance and his information.
And we talked about one of his favorite topics, which is love now off camera and off mic Gary told me his two favorite topics one is love. We talk about it here. We talk about the love that he had for his spiritual partner Linda and that's one topic and another topic that we talk about or we'll talk about even more. I suspect a whole lot more. Is the concept of death. So, we talk about love as you'll hear in this episode. And we talk about the juxtaposition of love and fear and Gary shares with you. That fear is an illusion. And many of us spend our lives living in the illusion because there's only love and fear. And my brother-in-law, if you've listened for any amount of time is a Shaman, He's also said the same thing. There are only two emotions that exist, love and fear. And what we have to look at is which emotion are we feeding? Which emotion are we getting into? So, enjoy the episode. I have a lot more coming to you. As I said, Gary, and are going to actually do three more episodes together. This is one of the four that we've done. And then I'll do four additional episodes and between releasing each of the episodes that Gary and I did, and I will dig deeper into the topics that Gary and I talked about. So again, thank you for listening and enjoy.
Hi, I'm Jim Fortin, and you're about to start Transforming your Life from the Inside Out with this podcast. I'm widely considered the leader in Subconscious Transformation, and I've coached super achievers all around the world for over 25 years. Here you're going to find no rah-rah motivation and no hype because this podcast is a combination of Brain Science, Transformational Psychology, and Ancient Wisdom all rolled into one to take your life to levels you've never thought possible. If you're wanting a lot more in life to feel better, to heal, to have peace of mind, to feel powerful and alive, and to bring more abundance and prosperity into your life, then this podcast is for you because you're going to start learning how to master your mind and evolve your consciousness. And when you do that, anything you want then becomes possible for you. I'm glad you're here.

Jim Fortin: So, we had talked a few minutes ago. We've been talking some personal things and I'd mentioned something you said. I love talking about that. And ironically, that's the 1st question that I have for you today. I put out to my tribe and I've got thousands upon thousands of people in my tribes, not including the podcast, which has millions of downloads. And I said, I asked them what they wanted to hear from you and so much love and adoration coming in for you and to you from the tribe. And a lot of them have read your books and been familiar for many years. But the first question I wanted to ask you was about Linda transitioning. Because people, I was in town one day and this lady walked up and she goes, are you Jim Fortin? And I said, yes. And she started crying. And she was visiting Sedona and she goes, your podcast helped me when my partner transitioned. And I want to talk about that and other things, because a lot of people have challenges with accepting their own life and transition or someone else's. So, when Linda transitioned, and a spiritual partner that you were just your twin flame, twin soul, however you choose to call it very close to how did you manage that emotionally?

Gary Zukav: It wasn't something to manage. And by the way, twin flames are not something that I've been taught is a reality. But I love Linda completely and she loved me and we were that way for 27 years. And it's a wonderful experience. I didn't think it existed, but it does. And Linda had a stroke. I was standing by her side in the kitchen when it happened. And she fell to the floor, and her only word was weak. And I recognized it for what it was, called the ambulance, and it was here within 10 minutes, 12 minutes. It took her to a regional medical center. In 25 minutes, and I'd already researched that center because I was interested in strokes and I knew it had a surgeon who could do endovascular thrombectomies and when somebody has a stroke, if they're if the cause of the stroke is removed within two hours, there's probably not going to be any lasting damage with an endovascular thrombectomy, which is a procedure that windows extended to 24 hours. So, I really wasn't that concerned, but I wasn't very awake in those days in my life. I expected that we'd go to the hospital and they'd do this procedure and keep Linda overnight for observation and we'd be home the next day. When we got there, she was already in a room in the ER and the surgeon was there and he took her into the O. R. And at about 30 minutes later, called me to a room close by and said I couldn't do it. He said I tried going in through her leg. The clot was right here and I couldn't do it. Couldn't get my device up there. So, I went in through her wrist. Over her shoulder still couldn't do it. And I said, can you do anything else? And he said there's an unconventional approach I can do it if you tell me to and I said yes do it He said I can puncture her throated artery and go in that way and he still couldn't get the device To the clot and so she was taken to an ICU room and that's where the stroke unfolded and that's where her soul went home So when I got home, I was feeling a pain. Unlike any that I had ever experienced, I didn't know pain like that could exist. I just didn't know it. I was touching a small bag that she used to carry and I could hear these sounds in the room and one of them was a scream. And I thought, oh, do animals scream like that? And then I realized it's coming from me. And then I heard another sound like a moaning sound. Oh, and I thought the same thing. Do animals moan like that? And then I realized, too, it was coming from me. So, this pain was so great, I decided not to squander one bit of it. Because I know that everything that happens in my life happens for my benefit, my spiritual growth. And this pain was so huge, I couldn't, like a mountain, like Mount Shasta, like Mount Everest, I couldn't go over it, around it, through it, under it. It was just there, and it wasn't moving. So, I made my decision not to squander it. This is too big a gift. And a couple of days later, I was sitting watching some trees gently move in the wind, and the thought came to me. I don't have a reason for living anymore, except to love people. And I never thought, I thought that I might have said something like that before, but no, it was so. And it still is. It's permanent. And in the days that followed, in the months that followed, more things began to happen. For example, I was driving out of a bank because Linda did all of the finances and I, in the middle of this process of pain and longing I had to figure out what our finances were. And I was driving as I was driving out of the bank. parking lot that day, and looking across the street at people on the sidewalk, and I woke up. We've always been taught to explain to people that we're in the earth school. That's the domain of time and space and matter and duality. And it's that time that we're born into. It's a domain that we're born into and that we die out of. That's our personalities. And I woke up in the earth school. I just suddenly knew that I was in the earth school. That was it. And it surprised me greatly because I could see how asleep the world was before I woke up in it. And then the next day, I realized the world that I woke up to is exactly like the world I was asleep in. Every detail. And then the next day I realized that I am the same in every detail, except that I'm awake. For example, before I woke up, my path was, let me put it this way, I'd heard about that old Zen saying, before enlightenment, chopping wood, carrying water, after, chopping wood, carrying water. Well, I do not have any idea what enlightenment means, and I've studied some Buddhist sutras and I still don't have any idea. But this before and after. Description that applied to my life before my path was creating authentic power. That means cultivating love and challenging fear in me. And after I woke up, my path is creating authentic power, cultivating love and challenging fear in me. It didn't change. And then yet more. Two months after Linda's soul went home, the nonphysical reality our support team gathered in Ashland, Oregon, where we live, as they do every spring and fall, and we decided to make a video celebrating Linda so that people could see that when an incarnation dies, it's not something that needs to be moaned or needs condolences, but it's. It can be an occasion and it is for us to celebrate that life in New York school. And we did. And we made it at a place that I thought would be appropriate. And afterwards, we all went out to have dinner. And so, at the restaurant, there were about 20 of us in our party. The server came to me and said, would you like this on one bill or a separate tab, sir? And I said, put it on separate tabs. That's what I always did. I was always stingy with money. Couldn’t do that, Jim. I had to run after her and say, well, I changed my mind, put it all on one bill and give it to me. I wanted that. I wanted to do that. No second agendas. It just felt good. That was a new experience for me. And the next day, the next morning, this thought came to me gently, not like a revelation, but softly. I said I'm generous. That was new. So, this is the best answer I can give to your beloveds, who want to know about what happens when, what happened when my beloved's soul went home. We knew that we are incarnations of a portion. I'm an incarnation of a portion of my soul and she a portion of hers. We were taught by the same nonphysical teachers, I for almost 30 years and she for as long as we were together. And so, this was not new to us. We knew that we had connections that must be older than any in our lifetimes because we weren't connected before we met in our lifetimes that we knew of, but I had never loved anyone. I never had a relationship, so I can't say it was really new to me to love Linda because I didn't think I now I know I do, but here's the thing. I was surprised to discover that I loved loving her and I still do. I love loving Linda. Now, where did that come from? So, I spent the next year and a half or longer, a little bit longer talking with her, not talking with her, like we're chatting now, but I could feel her. I could feel her. I could sense her. I could sense communication of some kind. And sometimes it was quite specific, but at the same time I was missing her terribly. The loneliness was bone deep; it was so painful. So, it's this, how can I be talking with her and missing her? I can't answer that, but I was. And the communications became more substantial, which is a funny word to use for someone that doesn't have a personality or a body anymore. But they did. And I'd be glad to answer any other questions that your friends or that your beloveds have about my experience with my spiritual partner's soul returning home to nonphysical reality. But I can tell them this. I'm grateful. I'm grateful for Linda. She changed my life by coming into my life, or rather, I changed my life in the process of being with her in those years we were together, which was a long time. It wasn't, Jim. It went just like that. Just like that. But I'm also grateful to Linda. Because of what she gave me by her soul returning home. Some of the, are the things that I've just explained to you. I love her completely. I'm grateful for every moment that we're together and for every moment that we're together now. And here's something else that I've learned and I've learned a lot about nonphysical reality, although I've not experienced it. And that is that time doesn't exist. So, it doesn't frighten me, the thought of loving Linda for eternity. Because we do. And the people you love, you are loving for eternity. You existed before time, and you will exist after time. And Linda and I are in this unusual situation of she being in nonphysical reality, and I being in real life. Here in the Earth School. And by the way, because hundreds of millions of us are becoming multi-sensory, many of us are experiencing very similar things, but maybe not as in the same way that Linda and I are. But every, everyone who's multi-sensory knows somehow that when a loved one's personality dies, that they're still there somehow. there can be a great void, but that void is not in the love. It's in the need that existed and wasn't recognized as a confusion in these cases between love and need. Love doesn't hurt. Need does. So, I have been learning so many things about myself that have to do with need. And I've been very fortunate to have the nonphysical teachers that we have, two of them, to assist me. And I'm so honored to share their wisdom. And I'm delighted to find that it's becoming my wisdom. I used to think I'm not wise. But I can recognize wisdom when I see it, when I hear it, and then I thought I'm not going to worry about this distinction as long as what I'm sharing is coming from my heart, and it's coming from sources of wisdom and compassion that I have experienced for about 30 years, 40 years, and I don't take it as so simply because. I’m told it, I experiment with it, and that's what I, that's what I tell our listeners to your podcast now. I don't ask you to accept anything that I'm saying is so, simply because I say it, but see if you resonate with anything that I say, and if you do, experiment with it, and if that's what you have your life for. To experiment with it, and if you don't resonate with what I say, or some of what I say, let it go. Don't try to wear a shoe that pinches.

Jim Fortin: That's huge, and we've not talked about this, but you'd mentioned Linda transitioning, and maybe you've been snapped your fingers, but you're like it's quick. It's

Gary Zukav: When I snap my fingers. When I snap my fingers, I'm talking about the 40 years, the 20 seconds we were together

Jim Fortin: I learned in 2020, I was just, I'd already moved to Sedona was living on a rental before I got out of the house and spent a year renovating and I moved in and one night I was there and I had a stroke and I'd recognize in that moment that, You can go boom, just like that. And it's lights out. And I had recognized in that moment that I only had a few sites. Actually, I texted my brother in law Don Xavier and he called 9 1 1 because he could see what was happening. And he called 9 1 1, but I was gone. I was out. I was gone. And so, in that moment, I recognize that in any given moment, I think a lot of us take our physical life for granted. And at any moment it can be gone and we're not thinking it's going to happen. We're not expecting it, but that can happen. So, you said something interesting here is interesting. Interesting to me, caught my attention was, I'm not wise. You were on Oprah, it doesn't matter, it's just commercial things, but Oprah 36 times because people want to hear from you. In your mind, is that not wisdom?

Gary Zukav: Yes, of course it is, but it comes from my teacher's name is Genesis. It comes from Genesis and I have been listening for decades now and understanding a little bit more as time goes on. Okay, and that's what I shared. That's what I shared in the seat of the soul, which is what brought Oprah and me together.

Jim Fortin: We, I personally think relative to the human experience, you're a very wise man. Very wise being, but again, that's all a matter of interpretation for you, for me, for all of us, but a lot of wisdom. We put it this way. A lot of wisdom. A lot of comforting Gary. I've never used this metaphor with you, but you're like what's that? That word comfort food. That's just comfortable. Talking to you is like comfort food. And even the first time I saw, when I saw you the first time on Oprah, I sat down on the couch and I'm like, I got to listen. It was like comfort food for the, by the way, good book title, comfort food for the soul, like chicken soup for the soul. But, One of my sister in laws, I was up there Thanksgiving, and they had your, my sister and brother in law, who are people, he's more explorative than she is, but they had your book, Seat of the Soul, in the credenza, in the living room. And I was telling my sister in law, Judy, about you, and she goes, it's a very simple question, but she goes, I want to know, where does he get all of his knowing and his information? So, I'll pass that question to you

Gary Zukav: From the universe. There's no other place which comes from and that experience of comfort. You're experiencing. That's the experience of love. But it's not as though I'm loving and bringing love to the world. The world is love. This is a universe of love and everything in it is love. If you use like I do the words universe, all these with capital first letters, universe, consciousness, love life. They all the same, they're all the same thing. And I'm saying this because the only thing that's real is love. Fear is an illusion. Every time that, and fear, by the way, are those experiences of, competition, resentfulness, jealousy, compulsion, every addiction, every obsession, feeling superior and entitled, feeling inferior and needing to please. These are all experiences of fear. And when you're experiencing them, you are in an illusion. The very experience of them is love. You are being given these experiences by the universe so that you can recognize. And move beyond the control of a part of your personality that prevents you from giving the gifts that you were born to give. And that's where your pleasure, well, more than pleasure, your joy, your fulfillment, your creativity, your vitality, enters your life. You can't do that while you're in the control of fear. While you're angry or jealous or in the grip of an addictive need to sex or food or gambling or any expression of fear. And so, our opportunity in the earth school is to recognize the difference between those parts of our personality that are attracted that are attached to the earth school and those parts that are of the soul. These are the loving parts. These are the parts that we experienced as gratitude, appreciation, caring patients. contentment, all of the universe. These are the loving parts of your personality, and they feel good. And when you act on them, they create consequences that feel wonderful and are constructive and healthy.

Jim Fortin: There's a, in Sedona to follow up on this. I know a couple of massage therapists, here in town and a couple of them are struggling with business. And one of the, one of the guys that works for me does amazing body work. And I'm like, Jacob, you're always busy. And when I, when he's working on me, I can feel energetically just. It's such a calming, it's not the right word. It's amazing physical work, but also the presence and the energy are very powerful. And he said, I love what I do. I bring that love to my work. So, I'm thinking that based upon what he had said and what you're saying is that when we radiate that frequency, people feel it. They see it and they gravitate towards it because it's soothing and they want it. They want more of it. Is that a fair statement? I

Gary Zukav: It would I'd want more

Jim Fortin: Exactly. Yeah, it feels good to be in the presence. I mean, when we're talking. Yeah. Something dawned on me one time about myself, I've never really, I know that physical people in the world really can't air quote, hurt me. So, I don't really get into a lot of things that people get into about, Oh, they're going to hurt me. They're going to, I just don't go there. But I remember talk like my closest friend. I said to myself, I feel really safe with that person. And I was asking myself what that means to feel safe with that person. And what's interesting is I feel that way with you because I know that when I'm with you and talking to you, that it's just two beings connecting and talking and sharing there's not agendas or not. There are not egos. There are not people trying to force or get the other person to do things. And that is almost like if I did them, that'd be like a drug. I mean, it's a very powerful experience.
Gary Zukav: It's not a drug. It's real. Yeah. What you're talking about is being in interaction with a person who's not at that moment in the control of a frightened part of his or her personality. Because every personality has frightened parts and loving parts. And to be in the earth school and to have a personality mean the same thing. You can't be in the earth school without a personality. And everyone's path through the earth school is as complex and difficult and challenging as your own. So, I have frightened parts of my personality and they are painful. And I'm grateful that I have learned about creating authentic power, and that sometimes I'm able to do it.And as I do it, each time I move more in the direction of love, I move more beyond the control of that frightened part of my personality, whether it's anger, or it's someone that has, that a frightened part feels has betrayed it, or wronged it, or abused it.It is that you are feeling, not the frightened part. The frightened part is familiar to everyone because we know what it feels, what these parts feel like in ourselves, and we know what it feels like to encounter them in someone else. It's very difficult. It's very difficult for them. And each time you experience the frightened part of someone else's personality, their anger, their rage, their prejudice, their judgment, it gives you an opportunity to create authentic power, to feel what you're feeling inside yourself. And choose not to act, not to react as you have in the past, but to act from a loving part of your personality instead.

Jim Fortin: And in your program, I listened to some of it again last night that you sent me a while back. Would you call that courage?

Gary Zukav: What's that?

Jim Fortin: The courage not to respond, not to act, not to lash out, to manage yourself in a more powerful way. Would that be courage?

Gary Zukav: Yes. But in this way, it's the new use of courage. For example, when, as you create authentic power, you develop two tools. One of them is emotional awareness. That means the ability to look inside yourself. So, when you are experiencing a painful emotion or someone has activated a frightened part of your personality like resentment, rage, anger, look inside yourself, not outside at the physical world. Because that frightened part is never about what it seems to be about. You may think it's the person in the world that's causing this anger and this pain of anger in you, but it's not. The world has activated in you an interior dynamic, an internal dynamic, and that internal dynamic is creating the pain that you feel. What is that pain? When you look inside yourself, put your attention into your energy processing centers. I'll tell you about three of them. Your throat, your chest, and your solar plexus. There are another four, seven in total. In the east, they're called chakras. But that's a Sanskrit term, so I'm saying energy processing center. So, you put your attention, say, into your chest area and look for physical sensations. Physical sensations, like aching, throbbing, churning, burning, stabbing, stinging. Not happy, heavy, joyful, bubbly no that's emotional illiteracy. But when you can look inside yourself and say I'm feeling in my chest area pain, a sharp pain in my upper left hand, the upper left of my chest. And I'm feeling a sort of a constriction around my whole chest area and in my throat area. That's another place to look. I'm feeling a constriction about maybe the size of a ping pong ball, and it's in my throat. It's at the bottom of my throat, just above my chest, and it hurts. See, these are physical sensations. And if you look in your solar plexus, you might say, I'm feeling a churning there, or a burning, or nausea. When you can describe your frightened, the experiences of a frightened part of your personality in somatic terms, in terms of your body Then you are emotionally literate. That's emotional awareness. And while you're experiencing the frightened parts of your person, a frightened part of your personality, by putting your attention into your energy processing centers, you can notice the thoughts that this part of your personality is thinking. And it'll always be comparative. Or judgmental. For example, I could never do that. I'm just not that good. Or, I already know all this. Why are people telling me this? I already know it. Or, he's so stupid. Or, I'm so stupid. These are the thoughts that a frightened part of your personality thinks. It’s very good to know. That fear is active in you when you recognize painful physical sensations in your energy processing centers and these kinds of thoughts. Because if you act on that, when you act, if you act on that, Jim, you will create painful consequences, destructive and unhealthy consequences for yourself. So, you can see how powerful you can become just to be able to recognize fear. The second tool of creating authentic power is responsible choice. It's the use of your will to create consequences for which you're willing to assume responsibility. So put these together and you have a picture of someone who is in the process of creating mastery in her life. Someone who, when they are triggered by something that appears to be in the outside world, takes their attention away from the outside world and puts it inside, and looks in their energy processing centers to see what physical sensations they are experiencing, and what thoughts part of the personality, or personality, is thinking, and chooses in that moment to use her willpower to move her attention into a loving part of her personality. So, you move your attention with your will to a time in your life when you were loved. Or when you were loving, and you knew it. It might have been with a parent or a grandparent. It might have been with a child that you love, but you knew you could feel love. And even if in that moment you can't do it because the frightened part is so strong, reach for it. Reach for it. Because you move yourself in that direction, the direction of love. This is the moment of creating authentic power. When you choose, while you are experiencing the painful physical sensations of a frightened part of your personality, to act from a loving part of your personality. That's the moment. That's when the spiritual rubber meets the spiritual road. And as you do that again and again, the frightened part of your personality that you're challenging begins to lose its control over you. And after a while, its control over you disintegrates. This is how you become a powerful person. And this, by the way, is not the definition of power. That our species has had for 300, 000 years. That understanding of power is the only understanding of power that a species that's limited in its perception to the five senses can have, and that is the ability to manipulate and control. We're not five sensory anymore. This is the big news. This is what all of Linda's books and my books are about, a transformation of human That's epic and unprecedented and it's happening now and it's happening fast. We're becoming multi-sensory and the old understanding of power that used to be our good medicine is now toxic. It prevents our evolution and a new understanding of power; the potential of a new understanding has come into being and that's alignment of your personality with your soul. That's what we're talking about. The alignment of your personality with your soul. In this brief span of time, which exists only in this domain that we are speaking now, from the date of your birth to the date of your death, defines what you think of or might have thought of as you. It's actually defining an incarnation of a part of your soul. How are you going to use that time that you thought of as you, that you thought of as your life, between your birthday and your death? The day that your soul returns home. No, of course it is a death of an incarnation. Linda's art incarnation was beautiful. I loved her. I loved every bit of it. I love the way it laughed. I love the way it smiled. I love the way it connected with people. I love the way it dressed. But it's gone. Ashes have gone to ashes and dust to dust. But the energy of the soul that animated that incarnation and its voice and its love are real. That's what I'm communicating with, and that's what we sense after an incarnation returns home. I cannot picture, Linda, I have no way of picturing or understanding what a soul might look like, and that's not even a meaningful statement, but I can feel it. I can feel love. I can feel her love. If you've had the experience of loving someone and being loved without question, it's just there. You know that it's wonderful. Well, that's what we're all born and destined to experience. When? That depends on you. That depends on your choices. Everything depends on your choices. Choices of what? Choices of intention. Choices of intention. Now as I'm using the word, intention is a quality of consciousness. So, when I decide to act from love, which is what happens when an individual creates authentic power, the quality of consciousness infuses his or her words and deeds. And if that person acts with the intention of fear, that is the quality of consciousness that infuses the word or the deed. So, once you're aware of these things, you've got what it takes. Now use it. Now use it. You ask about courage. Does it take courage to create authentic power? Yes, because to feel a frightened part of your personality while it's active, to put your attention into your energy processing centers and feel the pain, there requires courage. A new use of courage. Heartache is not poetic. It's real. It's real. Pain, emotional pain, is as real physically as hitting your thumb with a hammer when you're aiming for a nail. It hurts. And to consciously experience it. Choose to experience it. Choose to experience it in full. To never deny or repress or suppress an emotion, but to feel it in every way. And then choose not to act on it, but instead to put your attention into a loving part of your personality and act from that part of your personality. Now you're creating authentic power. Now you're no longer spinning your wheels, trying to relieve your emotional pain by changing the outside world. That can work for a while. Say you want a girlfriend and you get her, and then for a while you're at the top of a roller coaster. You feel great and everything's right. Sometimes that's called the romance, the romantic, the honeymoon. But then your girlfriend says to you it's been great, but I found someone else and actually I want to be with that person and I'm going to move out tonight, suddenly you go down to the bottom of the rollercoaster and it's so painful or a boyfriend or whatever it is you're attached to.

Jim Fortin: Yeah.

Gary Zukav: And that is an example of happiness, and most that pursuing external power, the ability to manipulate and control, can bring you is happiness. Happiness is dependent on what happens in the physical world, but when you create authentic power, you are changing yourself. You are igniting joy in yourself, and joy is not dependent. On the physical world. That's what, that's where we are all going. This is the great change in human consciousness. And it's happening within three generations. One of which has already come. So, there are hundreds of millions of individuals that understand what we're talking about. And if they don't understand it, they resonate with it. Yeah. I understand. Yes. There's something there. And then still there's even more that is still five sensory. To them, this has no meaning, they might consider it new age fantasy because they have nothing in their experience that can, they can attach to what we're saying. This doesn't make us superior to them or it doesn't make them inferior to us. It's just a natural ebb and flow of evolution. Within a few generations, all of us will be multisensory. But we won't all be authentically powerful, because that is the new potential that multisensory perception brings, and we have to create authentic power. We have to bring it into being with our choices, with emotional awareness and responsible choice. And, Jim, one more thing, because as we become multi-sensory, we begin to have access to nonphysical teachers. In other words, we become highly intuitive. Intuition is the voice of the nonphysical world, and we can begin to consult it. And don't think for a minute that your nonphysical teacher is going to tell you what to do. They don't. A nonphysical teacher will help you understand your experiences so that you can use them to grow spiritually, so that you can use them wisely and beneficially. But they will never tell you, do this or do that. If you ever hear a voice in your head like that, you are not in touch with a nonphysical teacher. You are in touch with a frightened part of your personality. And if you follow its advice, you’re going to create painful consequences for yourself in the East that would be called karma.

Jim Fortin: Yeah. I've been there, done that. And I'm, I trust me and there, I understand. I'm like. And they're done that. So, I get it completely.

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Okay. Let me segue from the episode for just one moment. A long while back. Gary asked me in a conversation we were having how he could support me. And I knew he meant that from the heart. And I want to do the same for Gary. And even though he's a New York times bestselling author and millions of people know who he is and they've read his books. I know that I can help him, at least from my little corner of the world. And then want to tell you very quickly about a program that he has, by the way, it's dirt cheap. So, don't walk, run and get registered. It's only $37 bucks a month. For his continuity site and the membership has called an evening with Gary Zukav. And my opinion $37 is a no brainer to spend an evening with Gary. Getting to talk to him and ask him questions. And what's included is a monthly 60 minute hard opening zoom call. It's live with Gary. You'll deep dive into relevant topics with Gary and get inspiration from Gary. You'll have the opportunity to dialogue with and ask Gary questions. And you'll also actually. We get journal prompts. That will help you along the way. There are journal prompts are actually three curated. journal prompts to deepen yourself exploration. Again, I've known who Gary is for a lot of decades. If you're listening to this podcast, obviously you're finding benefit. And my opinion, the guys, one of the greatest spiritual teachers of our time. So, obviously you do not want to miss the opportunity and you want to hop on it. That connect with him personally, to ask him questions. The notes will be on the links will be in the show notes. So, go and get registered for $37 bucks a month. And spend an evening with Gary Zukav. Okay. Back to the episode.

Jim Fortin: Somebody had asked me, I have a list of questions, but that's okay. It's there's a lot of chaos in the world right now. A lot of fear in the world. And they wanted me to ask you, so I'll use their words. Semantics, but how do you process or manage all of the division, the chaos, the polarity and the world that we're living in the physical world? How does that do it even affect you? And if it does, how do you think about it? Process it feel about it.

Gary Zukav: That's a bundle of questions. I don't try to manage any of that in the world because I don't have that ability. The world that is in chaos now is crumbling now., yeah. Is a world that was built by five sensory humans using external power. It is a world that reflects, expresses, and was built on, and is built on external power, the ability to manipulate and control. That world is becoming dysfunctional on the way to dissolution and it has no salvage value. It can't be salvaged because it has no worth and it has no worth not because it's not Functioning not because it's broken but because it's obsolete. It no longer serves our evolution. Yeah, let me give you an example We could look at Business, Commerce, health care jurisprudence, governance, even the military. All of these are social structures that are disintegrating. Yeah. Let's take a look at governance. In my opinion, the American form of government is the most advanced that's been created by five sensory humans. That's representative constitutional democracy. And a close second, our democratic our parliamentary democracies, but I'm very familiar with our system of government and it is at every level and in every way designed ingeniously. It’s an ingenious creation to harness conflicting pursuits of external power for the common good. Whether it's our tripartite government or within each of those parts, different terms of office from a couple of years to lifetime, it is a remarkable creation. But what happens to it when the pursuit of external power itself becomes destructive, when there is no common good? To the pursuit of external power when there is no good of any kind in any way to the pursuit of external power We are in such a time now we've entered it and we're not going back We are evolving into greater freedom and love and awareness And so these social structures that are based on this obsolete perception of power have no future What will they be? I don't know, but I do know that new social structures are beginning to emerge, like grass growing through cracks in concrete. The concrete are the old social structures. And the new social structures will have this in common, just as the old social structures are based on external power and they all have that in common, the new social structures will be based on authentic power, and they all have that in common. Alignment of the personality with the soul. The intentions of the soul are harmony, cooperation. sharing and reverence for life. That's real. That's not illusion. And everything that renew serve our evolution will also serve the evolution of our souls. Because the choices that we make with our will, our free will, in the Earth School as personalities. When they are to align these personalities with our souls, serve the evolution of our soul, in every way, or in a few important ways that I can think of, our evolution as a species is now becoming conscious. That’s enormously big and good news because it opens potential that wasn't there before. No longer do we need to distract ourselves with things such as becoming a space fearing species. Why would we want to do that? That's not a rhetorical question. Why? If we're doing it for fear because we want to expand markets, because we want to exploit our sister planets. For their mineral resources, then we will create more destruction and unhealthy consequences for ourselves individually and as a species. Why put all of that money and ingenuity and wealth into a space program to export fear? Why? Because of fear. If, on the other hand, we recognize that the new opportunities for our species is to become a soul fearing species. Now we can go places that we couldn't have gone before. And it might not require a spacecraft. It not, might not require radio astronomy. The universe is an amazing place. And one of the most amazing things about it is it's, not it's vastness, but it's intimacy. The vision of the universe that we have cultivated and explored as a five sensory species, one of galaxies expanding infinitely and each galaxy having effectively countless solar systems or planets or stars or black holes on one level and on the opposite level as we've explored physical reality into realms of the very, very small with electron microscopes and particle accelerators. We've come to the end of our search. We know it. This is physical reality, and we can always make more theories about it. I wrote a book on quantum physics. I delighted in writing that book. It's called The Dancing Wu Li Masters. It's about the history of quantum physics from 1905 to 1927. It's an amazing adventure, but we've got even more amazing adventures now. The reason I wrote that book is because quantum physics challenges the hegemony, the power of the intellect. And the intellect is now showing its powerlessness, which means its lack of applicability to new realms of experience and perception that are opening us, that are opening before us and opening us. The intellect cannot grasp or comprehend them. The intellect was designed to work with the five senses. The intellect was designed to explore data from the five senses, to compare it, analyze it, parse it, if you want to use a programming term, and present to the five, and present to the five sensory personality its discoveries that it feels are most helpful to the personality in pursuing external power, the ability to manipulate and control. But it cannot understand or communicate multisensory perception, and we're all becoming multisensory. And to do that, we are discovering a higher order of logic and understanding, and that is a higher order in logic and understanding of the heart. Emotions are very important in creating authentic power. Outside of commitment, the most important is emotional awareness. If you're not aware of your heart, if you're not aware of your emotions, you can't love, you can't know compassion, and it doesn't matter how many rovers we put on Saturn or how many moons, it's not going to make us a compassionate species. Only you can make us a compassionate species. And I'm not being poetical or flippant. Only you. I mean, speaking of first person, only I can make this a compassionate universe. Only I. That sounds solipsistic. Narcissistic, fantastical to five sensory humans and questionable even to most multi-sensory humans. But as our consciousness begins to expand and expand, it expands into places that were unimaginable to us before with opportunities beyond limitation. And they all have to do with us, each of us personally, with love, with compassion. And it's to those ends that we use courage in the new way and commitment. This is our, I was going to say our future. But from a multi century perception, expanded many times, the future is already here. We're creating it. It's not going to come into being in the, quote, a future. So, don't waste your time trying to change the future. Change now. There is no such thing as a future. You are here now, and you always will be here now. Why? Try to change something imaginary. Change something that's real. You now and change it in a real way, which means with love now, you're really accomplishing a great deal. But even that you'll find if there's attachment to it still has its limitations.

Jim Fortin: Well, okay. So, I've got more questions I want to ask. Well, I've got more questions I want to ask, but that wraps up our first episode.

Jim Fortin: Okay, so that wraps up the first interview of this series with Gary. Hopefully you enjoyed it. I know if you're like a lot of people on what I hear a lot of. Is that you took a whole lot of notes. You know, I've been exposed to things that Gary and I were talking about through 27 years with my brother-in-law has Sharman Don Xavier. And what I find is many times, even when you get a spiritual nugget, Of wisdom on the outside. It's powerful. But when you actually chew and chew and chew on that nugget. And you look at it from different angles and you bring it into your life. That's when the self-expansion and the evolvement happens. So, what I'm telling you is listen again and again. Review your notes and bring these principles into your life. Now on the next episode, that'll be me recapitulating this episode, taking it apart, deeper diving. And asking you questions about it. And then Gary will be back again for an episode after that. And we will do that for a total of eight episodes total. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for listening. And I'll catch you over on another episode. Bye-bye.