The Jim Fortin Podcast

EPISODE 301: “[INTERVIEW]: Gary Zukav – Seat Of The Soul “

January 3, 2024

Do you feel like you don’t fully understand reality? Have you ever sensed there might be more to life than what you perceive with your five physical senses?

In this very insightful episode, I am joined by spiritual teacher and bestselling author Gary Zukav. Along the way, we have an expansive conversation exploring topics like authentic power, emotional awareness, spiritual partnership, and moving beyond five sensory perception into multi-sensory living. Gary shares profound insights from his spiritual journey and decades of experience guiding others.

Gary recounts his journey starting from writing about quantum physics in The Dancing Wu Li Masters to reach a deeper understanding of reality and human consciousness. He discusses key quantum physics experiments and how the contradictory results point to the existence of duality. This leads to a realization that we can only see reality based on how we choose to observe and measure it. 

Building on the physics concepts, he asserts that humanity is undergoing an epic transformation from five sensory perception to becoming multi-sensory. He sees this as the next phase of evolution to gain a deeper understanding of the meaning and purpose of life. It requires moving from external power based on manipulation and control to authentic power aligned with the soul.

Gary touches on his prolific appearances on the Oprah Winfrey Show, which started organically from a shared sense of spiritual mission. He reflects on how much Oprah resonated with his message around intention and authenticity. He talks about reaching beyond language and labels to connect with universal truths that all traditions point to – light, compassion, inclusiveness, and love.

Transformational Takeaway

We’re awakening to deeper realities beyond the five senses. By distinguishing love from fear within ourselves, we can override fearful reactions and act from love instead. This alignment of our personality with our soul creates “authentic power” and profoundly transforms us. What steps can you take today to fulfill this within yourself?

Full Episode Transcript


You’re listening to the Transform your Life from the Inside Out podcast. This episode is titled interview Gary Zukav, seat of the soul. Gary is the author, which is a New York Times bestselling book written back in the 1990s. Gary is the author of seat of the soul. He’s the author of many other books that have won awards and have been bestsellers. And he’s the most invited guest on the Oprah Winfrey Show. Gary has been on the Oprah Winfrey Show 36 times. I read online where Oprah said that when she read his book, she wanted him as a guest on the Oprah Winfrey Show. She told her producers, they all said no, they didn’t think it was a good idea. She followed her higher awareness, her sense, and she invited him on the show. She’s also said that he shaped the future of her entire show because she didn’t want it to be just a talk show. She wanted it to be an experience, an illumination, a growth opportunity for people, which is why she wanted him on the show in the first place. When I saw him on the Oprah Winfrey Show, I connected immediately. Now, I want to share a personal story with you. He was always someone in the back of my mind that to me was an air quote dream guest. Somebody that I would love to have on the podcast, but truth be told, I said to myself, you know, Jim, that guy’s a big kahuna. You know, he’s a big banana. He’s a big deal. I mean, he’s been on Oprah 36 times, more than anyone else.

I mean, the guy’s a national name. Why would he want to be on your little bitty podcast, even though it has millions of downloads? When I reached out to him, I did it personally instead of having my team do it. And it took about three months for them to get back to me. They scheduled our podcast interview and they had to reschedule, I know it was three times and I think it was four times, we finally talked. When he and I started talking, he said, Jim, I looked you up before I sat down to talk with you today. And the second I saw your picture; I knew I wanted to be on your podcast. I knew I wanted to talk to you. Now, we had a really good conversation, a really good interview, and he goes very deeply, very quickly when we start talking about quantum physics.

From there, he took the ball and ran. And he goes for a long time. I mean, he literally has a lot to share with you guys. I hope you enjoy this, but he took the ball and he started running with it. And he started talking about quantum physics and creation. He’s also well versed in this and he’s written an award-winning book on the topic. And when we were done and the recording was finished, he said, Jim, I would have talked to you for as long as you wanted to talk. He said, I do thousands of interviews. And I’ve enjoyed this one more than pretty much most that I have done. He also said to me, he said, and the over 2000 interviews that I’ve done, you’re somebody that I really wanted to connect with.

I’ve connected with you in a personal way that I have not connected with most people. I will do whatever I can to support your mission. You tell me what you want me to do. I thought about it for a few minutes and I said, Gary, would you be open to doing more podcasts with me? Would you be interested maybe even in doing and starting a with me? He said yes to both. So, where we’re going to start. Are we have four more episodes, Gary and I coming your way? Unfortunately, we will not have those for you until the springtime because of his speaking and traveling schedule. He’s going to be gone out of the U S for two months. And he said, once I’m back, we can sit down and do four more episodes together. I’m over the moon, excited to do these with a man that I have great reverence and respect for and sharing this with you personally, you listening now to my podcast, you never know what’s going to happen when you reach out to people. I never in a million years dreamed that Gary and I may become personal friends, something that I hold with extreme reverence and extreme honor, because in my opinion, he is a man on a very deep, very loving, very committed spiritual path. Of all the episodes I’ve created, this one brings me great love and great joy to be able to bring to you. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do, and look forward to more episodes with Gary a little later in the spring. Enjoy the episode.

Hi, I’m Jim Fortin, and you’re about to start Transforming your Life from the Inside Out with this podcast. I’m widely considered the leader in Subconscious Transformation, and I’ve coached super achievers all around the world for over 25 years. Here you’re going to find no rah-rah motivation and no hype because this podcast is a combination of Brain Science, Transformational Psychology, and Ancient Wisdom all rolled into one to take your life to levels you’ve never thought possible. If you’re wanting a lot more in life to feel better, to heal, to have peace of mind, to feel powerful and alive, and to bring more abundance and prosperity into your life, then this podcast is for you because you’re going to start learning how to master your mind and evolve your consciousness. And when you do that, anything you want then becomes possible for you. I’m glad you’re here.

Jim Fortin : Okay, so obviously, I’ll do the introduction a little bit later on but Gary, I want to thank you for visiting with me today and the many people that will download and listen to this and be inspired and hopefully it will assist them and growing and, you’ve written several books, you need some water, please. Bring some water if you need.

Gary Zukav: Thank you.

Jim Fortin : You’ve written many books that have become New York Times bestsellers You’ve written the dancing wooly masters, seat of the soul, which I read decades ago I love and I’ve referred to hundreds if not thousands of people you’ve written spiritual partnership and then your newest work is Authentic Human and when I say

Gary Zukav: Universal Human

Jim Fortin: Yeah Sorry, when I say authentic human, of course, authentic, universal human. But I also understand that you said I didn’t write these literally, I was just the transmission for this content. When I say you wrote, I understand that it’s the body that wrote, but it’s the divine soul and the spirit that came through you to write that. And what I’d like to do is go back. When I saw you on Oprah?

Gary Zukav: Can I say one thing, Jim,

Jim Fortin: Yes, please.

Gary Zukav: I wouldn’t say came through me because that sounds like a channel or a medium, maybe even a trans medium. I’m none of those things. I’m a co-creator. When I was writing the first book, the Dancing Wooly Masters, I began, it’s a book about quantum physics.

Jim Fortin: Yeah.

Gary Zukav: And I wrote it because I got invited to a meeting of theoretical physicists at the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory above the Berkeley campus. I lived in San Francisco. And they were discussing the question, are you are we creating the reality that we’re experimenting with? Which is exactly what I was creating with a little arrogant, my little arrogant circle of friends in North Beach. But these were not, this was not a coffee shop conversation. These were some of the best theoretical physicists in the world. And they were having a serious discussion about what quantum physics could tell them about the nature of reality. Because until then, it had been pretty much established the answer was nothing. It could predict probabilities, but it couldn’t say anything about the nature of reality. So, I got so excited by this that one thing led to another and I decided to write a book about quantum physics. And they agreed to help me which was wonderful because I knew nothing about it and had never studied science. And so, I started writing and I wrote a chapter, outline for each chapter, and then I threw it away almost at once because my interest and my energy went somewhere else. And I had thought it would go. And I always followed that. And then after six months, I began to become more and more aware, and by then, quite aware, that these chapters fit together as though I had planned it that way. But I didn’t. I threw the outlines away. So, then I was pondering, how could that happen? And that’s when I Realize, or I experienced, nonphysical reality, that it’s not possible to be alone. It’s never possible to be alone. And so, it’s not possible to create alone. It’s a co creation. And this was my first experience of nonphysical reality and understanding what it is.

Jim Fortin: It, that’s, please go ahead. I’m sorry.

Gary Zukav: Oh, I was just commenting as it’s one of the ironies of my life that I first discovered nonphysical reality while I was writing a book about quantum physics.

Jim Fortin: And Gary I don’t really have a guess. You’re one of, I’ve had Bruce Lipton and you, but my podcast has millions of downloads. So, I don’t prepare and I made a list of notes to talk to you about and he’s probably going to go out the window in about 10 seconds, because you had mentioned the woolly masters. I assume you’ve heard of the double slit experiment and that the house. Yeah, is based upon the consciousness of the observer of the experiment. And I’ve had the most challenging time helping people understand that we co create our reality based upon where we hold our attention and our consciousness. So, you had mentioned all this just happened. You were not a physicist and these people came together. Is there some part of you that feels like that was already part of the karmic lineage for you and this lifetime for that to come together for you?

Gary Zukav: I think there were probabilities of that, but can I offer something Jim for you to help people see that how they experience reality depends upon their choices is also something we agree on and experience. But what I’d like to offer to you is that their better examples than the one that you picked. You mentioned Young’s, Thomas Young’s double slit experiment. And for those who are new listeners or are new to this is an experiment that was done in the 1800s that proved, indisputably, unarguably, demonstrably, in every other word you can think of, that light is a wave like phenomenon. And Thomas did it this way. He took something like a piece of cardboard and he put two slits in it. And then he shined a light into those two slits. And what came out on the wall on the other side were, was amazing. The wall on the other side showed vertical lines, some white, some dark, some white, some dark fading out. This is an interference pattern. For example, when you drop a stone, two stones into a pond, a calm pond, and you drop them at the same time, boing, and where they enter the water from those entry points, concentric circles, move outward. When those concentric circles start to overlap, because you’ve held the two stones pretty close, The high points of the waves start to reinforce the high points of other waves coming toward them, making them higher high points, and the low points, or the troughs, amplify the troughs and they become deeper. So, this is called amplitude. It changed the amplitude of the waves. Maybe I shouldn’t have used that word because it was pretty clear until then. It’s just ripples interfering with each other and the high parts get bigger. Because they reinforce each other and the low parts get lower because they reinforce each other. There’s nothing else but an interference effect that could explain what Thomas saw on the wall. That is a given part of physics. Now, in about 1905, Albert Einstein, now very famous then I don’t know if he was still a patent clerk in Switzerland for the government, working for the government.

Jim Fortin: Probably around that time.

Gary Zukav: Yeah. But he did another experiment and he shot, this was an experiment of shooting photons or any kind of or electro or in any kind of subatomic particle onto a metal surface, and when this stream of photons hit the metal surface, it knocked electrons loose, and these electrons went flying off. And the velocity with which electrons went flying off, or the particles that were impinged upon and went flying off, they were knocked out of their orbit, according to the theory of that time. And if a photon with high energy hit the metal, bang! The ricochet, it wasn’t a ricochet, it knocked something loose, and that something went bang! And if it was a slow or low energy photon, it went boing! And what it knocked loose went boing! The short of this is that this experiment showed demonstrably, unarguably, irrefutably, that light is a particle like phenomenon. Nothing else can explain Einstein’s photoelectric effect experiment, nothing. And that is the beginning of the complexity, the simplicity of what drove physicists into eventually explaining the quantum theory the way they did. It’s this. How can you explain the coexistence of Thomas Young’s double slit experiment, which proves that light is wave like, and Albert Einstein’s photoelectric experiment, which proves that light is particle like because they’re mutually exclusive? Waves are spread out over distance, and a particle’s confined to a point. They’re still mutually exclusive. And at the end of about 22 years, from 1905 to 1927, there evolved an understanding of this abstract mathematical formulism called the quantum theory. It’s called abstract because there are pieces in the theory, I mean in the actual formalism, that don’t have anything to do with physical reality. You can’t say that piece represents this. Blue light. It doesn’t. But yet, the thing, the formula still predicts probabilities. If you set up an experiment this way, it will predict the probabilities of that experiment if you prepare it in a certain way and measure it in a certain way. And those probabilities get more and more validated the more experiments you do. If you were to do an infinite number of experiments, it would validate precisely probabilistic the predictions of probability of the quantum theory that’s called a stochastic theory. So, there they were, how are we going to explain this? Even talk about this mathematical formula that no one can say what’s in it. It just works. And not only that, is it wave? Is it particle? That’s when both two people, an older fella named Niels Bohr, both of these heroes, Niels Bohr said, here’s the only way we can explain it. Said, we can never know. Nature, the way it is, with a capital N. That’s the way they talked about the universe, essentially. We can only see it the way we choose to look at it. For example, an experimenter, if an experimenter chooses to do a double slit experiment, reality, nature is wave like, light is wave like, light is wave like. If we choose to do Einstein’s experiment, it’s particle like. And they didn’t exactly spell it out this way, but I loved what I saw in that. And I wrote about it in the Dancing Ruling Masters. That means we can never know, is light particle like or wave and let’s make it personal. You can never know if light is particle like or wave depending upon, unless you do an experiment. Unless you make an observation, and you choose the observation, Einstein’s experiment.

Jim Fortin: You said something there. You said something that I think encapsulates, if I heard it correctly from you, is that we can only see the way that we choose to see. Yes. So, we’re experiencing a reality.

Gary Zukav: This was confined to light, discussions of light, but that’s exactly Bohr abstracted from this. He said, we can’t see nature the way it really is. We have to make an observation. That’s very similar to what you’re saying. Now, can, if I have enough time, can I tell you about something?

Jim Fortin: Please, you have plenty of time, all the time you want.

Gary Zukav: Okay, completely. Happening at the same time, a younger fella and a colleague of Niels Bohr was Werner Heisenberg. And Werner Heisenberg expressed something very similar in the uncertain, in what he called the uncertainty principle. He said, suppose for a fact, in those days, Atoms we’re seeing as having a nucleus with electrons and orbits revolving around them. So, suppose we want to see exactly where an electron is in its orbit around the nucleus. How do we do that? We look at it. How do you look at it? You look at it by shining light on it. But when you shine light on it, that’s photons, and as soon as a photon hits that electron, it knocks it out of the orbit. You know exactly where it was at that moment, but then you have no idea where it is after that. So, you make an observation, but the observation disturbs what you’re looking at, and you can’t tell where it’s happening to it then. That’s the uncertainty principle. Every time you make an observation, you disturb, you change what you’re looking at.

Jim Fortin: Every time I make an observation, I disturb what I’m looking at.

Gary Zukav: Now this is in the confines of a discussion of physical life. This is the example that Werner Heisenberg, also a physicist, gave to explain the uncertainty that is created by observation. As soon as you make an observation, you change what you have observed. And these two together, the uncertainty principle and the complement, and Bohr’s Principle of complementarity. Both express the same thing. We can never see the world, if you want to generalize it, the way it actually is. We can only see it the way we see it, and that’s a choice. And, by the way, Albert Einstein, who disliked quantum physics intensely, he never agreed with it, argued with Bohr, and, amicably argued with Bohr and the quantum physicists. He said famously, God does not play dice. So, this. became, for me, the wonderful, central, core energy of the Dancing Wooly Masters. For me, I love quantum physics, never understood anything about it. I still don’t understand the formalism, but I understand quantum physics. There are five ways of interpreting this abstract formalism that always works, and the one that is most used by most physicists was created by Niels Bohr, and it’s called the Copenhagen Interpretation of the Quantum Theory, and it’s exactly this. What you were saying, Jim, you can’t, you have to, when you observe something, you make a choice about how you see the world. And if we want to keep, if we want to keep extrapolating, that changes the way the world is. But this is what I’m offering you. Instead of saying Thomas Young’s double slit experiment shows that we can’t see reality the way it really is. It’s a combination of the existence of Thomas Young’s double slit experiment and Albert Einstein’s photoelectric experiment proved that light is not wavelike, it’s particle like, while Thomas’s experiment proved that light is not particle like, it’s wavelike. This is the famous duality of quantum physics. And this is the way that the founders of it, two of the best, two of the most famous, Niels Bohr and Werner Heisenberg, explained this conundrum, this parade it’s not a paradox, it just, it can’t be explained, and this is what they said about it. This is how they explained what is happening, that we can’t know nature. And Einstein, by the way, said the same thing, but in a different context. He said, studying the universe is like looking at the face of a clock. You can see the hand moving. You can see it clicking and we can make up observations and theories about what’s in the clock, but we can never open the clock. So, they had in common, all of them, we cannot see reality the way it is. And the quantum physicist said, not only that, every time we try it, the only way we can the only thing we can know about reality is what we see in our experiments, which means observations. I hope this is helpful to you because I love what you’re sharing with people, and it resonates with me with everything that I know, which is not very much, but a lot about quantum physics. So, I want to validate that.

Jim Fortin: I love that comment that I want to go to choose in a minute, but you said something duality of quantum physics, the particle and the wave or the light in the wave is the way that I’ve always said it. Now, what’s interesting. I never noticed it till now. Is life being duality, the yin and the yang, the male and the female. But I look at human beings as duality also because I don’t consider myself a human being. I’m a cosmic being that’s having this human experience, duality again. And I, you mentioned in your book, the universal human, it’s an old concept as above, so below as above. I’m wondering, again, if physics just parallels the entire human experience and everything is duality and that’s the end of it. It’s just duality.

Gary Zukav: I don’t know. But I can say that it is a famous, the wave particle duality is a famous central core aspect of quantum physics and any discussion of it and Niels Bohr and Werner Heisenberg at the end of their of 20 some years of discussing this and came to this conclusion, you can’t see, you can’t, we can’t know the world the way it really is. Now we’re extrapolating hugely. They never intended that. They were confining their arguments, their theories to physical experiments. I love experimenting and extrapolating just the way you were talking about. Is there a world, a way that exists that we can’t see it? I don’t know. I know that I keep seeing more and more about the world, this one, and worlds that are nonphysical, but all of that, all of it comes through my perceptions and understandings that are limited to my incarnation as Gary Zukav, and that’s a pretty limited, that’s quite a big limitation. But I want to share that I’m aware of it. And so, within this incarnation, I share and I delight in sharing what is most meaningful to me with the most integrity and accuracy and clarity that I can. And that’s become quite a challenge because we’re talking about, you’re a student of a shaman obviously. There is so much that like the reality that the quantum physicists realize they can’t ever pinpoint unless they try. And my experience is, it’s beyond words, but it’s not beyond being. It’s beyond understanding, but it’s not beyond experience. And, this is as far as I’ve gotten in my life so far, that and the fact that it’s all led me to love. There’s really no other thing. If I were to say, what is reality, Gary, tell me, sum up everything you know. Everything you could possibly imagine. Everything you can think. What is reality beyond everything else that we could ever see or imagine? I would say I do say love.

Jim Fortin: I want to talk about that in just a second. I want to go there, but if we can for a second, I want to go back about the duality of Gary Zukav, because all of these transmissions you brought have come from that or through that duality, the physical and the nonphysical. And it’s so interesting. You grew up and you were born and you were raised early in Texas, and then you moved to Kansas. And what I find fascinating about your past is that you went to Harvard. Then after that, you went into the military special forces and became a Green Beret. Now, the curiosity about that is so five sensory, but you’re you, I’m going to use the word mission seems to be multisensory. Was there a time in your own evolution where you’re like, life doesn’t make any sense to me anymore? I guess the question I have is, did you ever feel like you were, did you ever feel like you didn’t belong on this planet early in life?

Gary Zukav: No, just felt sorry to be alive sometimes, but never felt that I didn’t belong. And by the way, Jim, I want to say that I’ve read a little bit about, that you provided about what you share with people about being I’ve forgotten the two terms, but it’s like a nonphysical and physical. Esoteric.

Jim Fortin: Nagual and Tonal. That’s shamanistic phrase is the tonal is the physical ego, then the wall is the higher part of us, the higher being. Okay. And my work is to help balance the two.

Gary Zukav: Oh, first I’m saying this because I love what you’re sharing and I don’t want anything I say to be in any way taken as not agreeing with it.

Jim Fortin: No, that’s fine. Please, do disagree. If there’s something that I, if you feel like I’m not on the right track, I would love to hear it.

Gary Zukav: But I don’t disagree. What I’m, what I love is as we’re all becoming multi-sensory in our terms, we’re all beginning to be able to see beyond the limitations of the five senses. And people are expressing this in different ways, and you’re expressing it in a beautiful way. And I think that anybody that’s had a shaman as, a mentor, or shamans, or plant medicine, or LSD, or simply their own expanding awareness, understand that there’s no way to say, this is the way things are. But I can say, consider this. It can help you. It’s helped me, and it may be able to help you. There’s an enormous transformation of human consciousness that’s now happening, and it has never happened before. We are all becoming, as a species, at the same time we’re all moving beyond the limitations of the five senses. Now this doesn’t, this is. Replacing five sensory perception, which means that when you’re five sensory, you can’t imagine that anything, and you don’t believe that anything exists that can’t be seen or touched or heard or smelled or tasted. But as we move beyond that, we begin to see that’s not and that’s multi-sensory perception. And this new epic transformation doesn’t mean that there weren’t people in the past that had multi-sensory perception. Shamans obviously had it, but they visit the seen world, the unseen world, to help people in the seen world. And all of the creators, not the creators of our religions, but creators of the kernel of universal truth that lies at the heart of our religions. Which is very different than the religion, the organization itself. These have always existed. What’s happening now, what’s new now, is that everybody, within a few generations, human generations, is becoming multi-sensory. That’s never happened before. And that’s what I’m so excited about, and that’s what Linda and I share, that’s what our books are about, and our events are about. And as we share it, I think I was. I think I was a bit fundamentalist about the things that I was discovering, and they came from nonphysical teachers, but right away, from the very beginning, as I was being taught things I told one of them I can’t share this because there’s too many religions, there’s too many dogmas, there’s too many beliefs that are causing nothing but conflict in the world, and I’m not going to share Be a part of that. And he said, you don’t need to be. Share this, if you choose, as a window through which you’ve come to see life, as I mentioned. And say, maybe it would help you looking at life this way but this is not, but it’s not necessarily anything that I’m saying you should do. And that gave me permission. Now I can say anything, Jim, if I’m saying it with authenticity. Because if I can say, This, and it conflicts with Hinduism, Buddhism, Thai, Islam, someone can say that’s wrong, but I’m saying this is my experience and no one can argue with that.

Jim Fortin: I love that explanation because I’ve been in that same place. I’m behind you and what you’re doing by probably 20 years on 58. So, I’m a little behind you, but that’s how I feel sometimes as well. And I just do what I do when I look at my podcast that has millions of downloads. I don’t have guests. I’m not people, I don’t do things that people traditionally do. And people have even said, how did you grow this? That’s you broken every rule and you’ve grown this. It’s because I talk about what we’re talking about, and that’s resonating with people at some level of consciousness. And I want to go back here. You said,

Gary Zukav: Could I say, I, from my perception, you did this and can do it and are still doing it because hundreds of millions of people are now becoming multisensory. And they weren’t before. In the 40s, the 50s, even the 60s, the 70s, people would say you don’t, Jim, maybe you should see a therapist, or have you been taking a drug, or, but now that’s not the case. There are still people who are confined to the five senses that have no experience upon which they can under, that they can hook onto to explain multi-sensory perception. But now, that so many of us, and soon the entire human species, within a few generations, are going to be multi-sensory, everything has changed. Everything has changed. And so, you talk about these things that from a five-century perception might seem esoteric or limited to a few people who’ve experimented with shamans who are beyond the five senses or mentors. But now, this is the life pulse. This is who we are becoming. Multisensory perception beyond the five senses, communication with nonphysical guidance, that’s intuition, is becoming the defining characteristic of our species. And that’s why so many people love your discussions, because you’re discussing what is real for them. What is, they suspect is real. Don’t really want to think that’s real, but it is real. And it helps to have voices like yours to say, you’re not. Crazy. This is quite sane. In fact, there’s more sanity about this than there ever has been in our species before. Because the understanding of power from a five sensory perspective is manipulation and control. That’s external power changing the physical world in order to feel better about ourselves. And that’s how we evolved. We evolved as a five sensory species by surviving. And we survived by pursuing external power. But now, we are becoming and hundreds of millions, maybe billions of us are multisensory. We are a multisensory species. We evolve by growing spiritually, and we grow spiritually by creating authentic power, aligning the personality with the soul. Now, soul is no longer a theological or a philosophical or a religious concept. It’s a reality. And it’s not this thing in your chest cavity. It’s the force field. It’s the center. It’s the essence of who you are and who you are. In, call it an earth school, a realm of time and space and matter and duality is a personality. From a little larger perspective, each personality is an incarnation of a soul. And when a personality is born, that, from a multi-sensory perspective, is a dramatic act of spiritual responsibility, and a voluntary one. And when a soul returns home, the personality dies. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, but the soul doesn’t. The soul has myriad personalities. And the energy and the love and the voice of the incarnation continue. That’s how we can speak with ancestors. That’s how we can speak with people that we love and that they love and that love us. whose incarnation has come to an end, and that’s what our guides and our teachers will help us understand. And you are one of them, Jim. You are a guide. And as you teach those things that you’ve been taught and experience, you become a teacher yourself. That’s my experience. But I don’t like to say I’m a teacher, because when I say teacher, I’m talking about with a capital T, and that is a nonphysical teacher. That is a teacher. I think, I don’t know at all, but I think that’s what a shaman goes to when a shaman goes to wisdom, to compassion, to clarity, to what is constructive and good to share. But I didn’t mean to sidetrack us.

Jim Fortin: No. He always says, I’m not a teacher and he led us places and he also. Also says, believe, don’t believe. It’s not a matter of belief. It’s the experience. And he, as I said, is a real shaman. He started when he was six. A lot of people call themselves a shaman. That’s not him. I’ve been in power ceremonies inside the great pyramids with him. My family has, or Teotihuacan or we’ve been inside Palenque the pyramids in Mexico for two nights, Uluru, Haleakala, power spots on the planet. I want to back up here. You said something is that basically you were saying shamans get things from a different world and you don’t do it that way. I think you’re a shaman and a sorcerer.

Gary Zukav: I don’t know anything about shamanism, nothing. I have a dear friend, Alberto Vieta, who’s been teaching about shamanism for years, but I myself, that’s not my path. My path involves a great deal of aboriginal energy. And beliefs, for example, Linda and I were adopted into Lakota culture years ago, not as shamans and not by shamans. So please just don’t take anything I might have mentioned to say about shamans as anything but an opportunity for you to say what I have, what you know.

Jim Fortin: Understood. Yeah. No, I understand. And I would, from my experience, is these things that come through you that you transmit are not coming from 5D. They’re coming from a higher consciousness, soulful consciousness of you to come through. Even though you’re the ones putting them on paper, so to speak, or a computer this day and age, that these are coming in dream time and epiphanies and awareness’s and experiences that open you up to this, even though you might not be consciously aware of where it’s coming from. That was my whole point of getting on that vein is I do think that we’re all sorcerers and we all connect, but many of us are not aware that we’re connecting to divine mind. or the force, or, different terms we’re using. I remember on Oprah 25, 30 years ago, I didn’t see a lot of episodes, but I saw one, and it was pretty comical, multi-sensory, is I think you said almost quote on Oprah that, You were a pilot and used to buzz farmers and you never recognized a farmer could get off a tractor so quickly when you buzz them, but they got off quickly enough and they were astute enough to get your tail number as you flew by. I’m not sure if you remember that story, but I’ve always just remembered that and. I’m wondering how you,

Gary Zukav: Are you sure I was the guest? Are you sure I was the guest you were thinking of? Because I don’t remember.

Jim Fortin: I only watched you for the most part, okay. But weren’t you a I’ll have to go back and look at that now and find it if I can on YouTube? Yeah. But weren’t you a pilot also?

Gary Zukav: I was. I, yes. But I never flew crop dusters, I never flew anything but little airplanes and did some aerobatics, and I never buzzed anybody, a house, a person, I just didn’t.

Jim Fortin: I’ll have to go back and, okay, maybe my memory, but I’ll have to go back and look.

Gary Zukav: I like the analogy.

Jim Fortin: It was pretty humorous. When did you, I don’t know the right word that you would use, but when did you have this awakening from the 5D world? The multisensory world of the body into this awakening. I know that you went through an experience younger when you were addicted to multiple or different things. When did you wake up and go, wait, my mission is this soulful mission? How did that happen for you?

Gary Zukav: Incrementally and slowly. It’s my favorite grandmother, Libby used to put me up overnight as I go back to Pittsburgh, Kansas from Harvard, and I’d overnight in Kansas City. And we’d talk about the family and gossip about the family, and she was really close to me. And she lived in this large building with a, had a big restaurant in it and she’d take me to dinner and afterwards we’d walk through the lobby and it was an ocean of gray hair and she’d say, Gary, this is Mr. Rosenblum. You remember him, don’t you? And that was not a question. I had to say, yeah, this is Miss Goldberg. You remember her. If I didn’t shake my hand and say, she would jerk my hand down and she’d say, yeah, this is Miss Goldberg. Even though I didn’t say anything, she said, like that, in disapproval. And when she died, I was at the funeral, and the rabbi was talking to the audience in front of him, and the family was sitting in an alcove to his right with a closed-circuit TV monitor over the archway. Close circuit TV was brand new in those days, and I thought it was funny, so I started to laugh. And Libby jerked my hand down and she said, she didn’t want me talking during her funeral, she wanted to enjoy it. That was, I think, my first experience of multisensory perception. But I didn’t have those words and I didn’t know what it meant. And I didn’t tell my parents, I knew they’d just think that I was compensating for my pain by hallucinating. But it happened. Libby shushed me at her funeral so she could hear it better. It wasn’t until I was writing that chapter in The Dancing Wooly Masters that I experienced nonphysical reality, and I knew it was nonphysical reality. It wasn’t mystical. It wasn’t mysterious. Yes, it was. Everywhere, it was a rich feeling, and it was there. And now I could go back and say, that experience with Libby was my multisensory perception. And I think people are like I was, five sensory and they didn’t realize, and even now they might not realize that they’re multisensory, but when you start to know things about people that your five senses didn’t tell you, when you start to ask questions like I think I’m more than a mind and a body. That’s a five sense, that’s a multi-sensory query or I think the world is, I don’t think it’s entirely random, I don’t think it’s random, I think it’s meaningful, may even be symbolic, that is a multi-sensory experience. And so many of us are becoming multi-sensory and they’re listening to your podcast and they’re being nurtured by it some of them know very well that they’re five, multi-sensory. And others are just beginning to experience it, and maybe they’re not sure that it’s real. Maybe they don’t even want to experience it. Maybe, but you assure them, I’m saying I’m experiencing it. And it sounds like you are too. These are precious things to share. And as I first started sharing, I realized that I got very attached to our language because it’s so clear. It’s so accurate. And it was given to me. And then I began to see that other people are expressing the same thing, like you, in entirely different languages. I talked to a dear friend, Masami Saionji, who’s in Japan doing enormous things, and she’s in her 80s now. In their institute, our foundation, they’ve got 12, 000 people come up once a month to Mount Fuji. And they sit in the grass, even if it’s snowing, and they do wonderful things. And I described to her what I thought, what I was doing, and I said, is this what you call the divine spark? She’s amazing, she’s about comes up to my nose, and I’m not tall, but she just said abruptly, different language, same thing, I’m seeing that more and more now too. So, the language isn’t so important to me, I offer our language the vocabulary of authentic power because it’s precise, it was given to me. But however, it comes to you, and it, by it I mean that you are more than you thought you were. In our language, that you are a powerful and creative, compassionate and loving spirit. And the pain in your life is the distance between that reality and your self-image. Then the work begins. That’s the work of creating authentic power. Multisensory perception is a gift. It’s happening. You don’t have to develop it, although we will. You don’t have to ask for it. It’s emerging. Authentic power is a potential. That comes with multisensory perception, and you have to create it. You have to bring it into being. You have to align your personality with your soul, or put another way, align your personality with love instead of fear. And there’s a way to do that, and it’s not mystical either. It has to do with emotional awareness and responsible choice. Fear hurts when you encounter a frightened part of your personality, which is shorthand for a dynamic that originated in fear, that you’d experience as anger, jealousy, resentment, competition, impatience, anger. It hurts when you experience it, and I’ll show you how to see this for yourself in terms of physical sensations, and if you act on it, it creates painful consequences. You push people away, it’s destructive. And love, which, loving parts of your personality, which are aspects of your personality that originate in love, for example, gratitude, appreciation, caring, patience, contentment, awe of the universe. They feel good when you experience them in your body, and when you act on them, they create constructive consequences. So creating authentic power is a matter of being able to do this, to distinguish within yourself between love and fear, and choose love, no matter what is going on inside of you, like anger, jealousy, or what is going on outside of you, like another 9 11 type of event. That’s creating authentic power. Emotional awareness, responsible choice. Those are the tools. Intuition and guided by intuition, the voice of the nonphysical world. So, Linda and I do our best to explain to people multi-sensory perception and then the difference between external power and authentic power, which is very important now because with the emergence of multi-sensory perception, the pursuit of external power has become destructive. It produces only violence and destruction. And you can verify this in your life too. So, we are living, I feel, in the most exciting, unprecedented time it’s been possible for a human to be. We are standing with one foot in the old consciousness and one foot in the new. And with almost, not almost, with every choice, we are brought to the same place. What shall we choose, the old consciousness or the new? Or, put into very, not simple, but rich terms, what shall we choose, love or fear? Creating authentic power is a way of experiencing fear, or the frightened parts, never to suppress or repress or deny an emotion, that’s what we suggest. But instead, feel it fully, and while you’re feeling it fully, choose in that moment to put your attention into a loving part of your personality, one that’s grateful or content. or patient, and choose to act from that part of your personality instead of the frightened part while you’re experiencing the frightened part, while you’re feeling it in your body, while you’re seeing its thoughts. That is the moment of creating real power, authentic power. And as you do that again and again, the frightened part that you’re challenging begins to lose its control over you, and eventually its control over you disappears, because you’re not trying to change it, embrace it, surrender to it. It won’t change. It comes from fear. You are moving beyond the control of it, consciously. A responsible choice is a choice that creates consequences for which you are willing to assume responsibility. And that’s what I strive. This is my path. It’s a lifelong heart. Heartfulness meditation. It requires being aware of what I’m feeling. It requires being aware of my intentions. An intention is not a goal. An intention is a quality of consciousness. And that quality of consciousness infuses your words and your actions. If that intention comes from love, it is that quality infuses your deeds and your words and creates your reality. It creates your karma. And if your intention, if that quality of consciousness is fear, that is the quality of consciousness that infuses your deeds and words, creates your karma, that is the choice in which energy becomes matter. That is the seat of the soul. That is when karma is created and you experience it. All of these things are fantastical to a five sensory personality, but they are nectar to multi-sensory personalities. They begin to address the meaning and the purpose of life. And is it true or not? Should you follow this path or not? Follow your meaning. Follow your heart. Let meaning be your compass. Let meaning direct you. Let your life lead you, but with awareness. I was addicted to sex for more than half my life, and I would have thought that joy came from getting more sex. I had no idea what I was doing or how much pain I was in. But as you become aware, your life begins to fill with meaning, and purpose in your consciousness begins to change, or mine did. And it’s a good thing, in my experience, it’s a very good thing.

Jim Fortin: That is powerful. And I just had an epiphany and a realization that I’ve known that I was multisensory since a child, but I never understood it and didn’t talk about it and put it away for decades. And I remember the first interesting that it’s you, it could be anybody, but you, when I saw you on Oprah, I was transfixed. I could not watch. I sat down and I was just. Emotionally transfixed on watching, not her, but you. And what I’ve recognized is that I was experiencing and picking up and feeling the soulful energy that you were bringing through on Oprah. Now I want to go somewhere else, Oprah, I read you’re the most visited guest to Oprah. I think you’ve been on 36 times. And Oprah said that her producers told her not to have you on the show. They didn’t want you. And she knew she had to have you on the show. I would have been the same way. And she attributes, at least as I’ve read, you to her but for lack of better words, awakening to the spiritual messaging that made the Oprah show over the years and made it a phenomenon that it is so I want to thank you because I didn’t even recognize that’s when I was like, I was multi-sensory in that moment when I saw you.

Gary Zukav: Yeah, I didn’t know that story about Oprah. I. Linda and I first met Oprah, she invited, I didn’t know who she was, she called me. And I was living in Mount Shasta and she explained who she was and then later one of her producers called and asked me invited me to come to Chicago. To talk with Oprah for a little segment at the end of her shows called Remembering Your Spirit. And I talked to Linda in San Diego. She said, let’s go.

Jim Fortin: So, she knew who Oprah was, but you didn’t know who, and she was a

Gary Zukav: She knew it. She felt the energy and she felt it was a good thing. She said, let’s go. We did. And we talked in this little apartment that Oprah had, obtained close to Harpo Studios. And it was recorded with a camera over my shoulder and a camera over hers. And afterwards, we started it with a circle. She had her staff there, her senior people, and we did a little prayer, an invocation on. Great. And then we began. And when it was over, she said, she looked at me, Linda and I had gone to Europe the first time really,in a long time. And I had an impulse to buy an Italian suit, so I bought it, but there’s no place to wear it in Mount Shasta where I was living. But I brought it to Chicago and wore it, and Oprah looked at me after the end of our talk and she said, look at him, I can put him on television. And then she said, I’m going to make a gift of this talk to my audience, and I’m going to do it. I’m going to make it a Christmas gift. She broadcast that conversation on Christmas Eve afternoon, and that was our beginning of our co creation. And then the next April she called and she said Mr. New York Times bestseller, because by then the New York, everybody wanted to read it because Oprah wanted said to, and I said, how do you feel about the way I did before? And she said we’re going to do a show in April and this is what it’s going to be about. And I said. Oh, that sounds so good. I’m going to watch that. And she said, no, Gary, you’re going to be on it. And what I learned from Oprah was that what she learned the most from the seat of the soul and from our interactions had to do with intention. And so, she started to change her talks with her producers and She said from then on, after she had that realization, she read it in the book, but she really came to her. That intention determines everything. And she had each of her producers say whenever they pitched a show or a guest, what’s your intention for this? And even if it’s only to get better ratings, you tell me what your intention is for this show. So that is what I know that the little I know about Oprah. I don’t know if she was open to Multi-sensory perception. I know she got a lot out of the book because she wrote one of the forwards to the 25th anniversary edition to it, but she’s beautiful and I really appreciate her. And I just wanted to clarify the small distinctions between what you thought Oprah’s impressions might’ve been and what I think they were.

Jim Fortin: I don’t know what they were, but I knew this. They probably weren’t conscious. But they were calling, you were calling her energetically. And my thought back then was, is I wonder what their sole agreement is that they made before they got here that had this facilitation. That’s really what went through my mind.

Gary Zukav: I agree. I agree, Jim, and I’m never I would like to know I’m not in communication with Oprah as much as I used to be, but I would love to see if she thinks in those terms because I do, I think this way Orpah came into my life, not because of me, but because of Oprah. It was Oprah’s heart. It was Oprah’s sense of meaning. It was Oprah’s sense of purpose in the world. In this case, I know specifically to bring discussions of spirituality to mainstream daytime television. And she saw in me a potential way to do that and a good way to do that. And she acted on it. So, I can say, thank you, Oprah. That would be thanking Oprah for following her heart. And that’s something that is beyond my ability to think. It’s the universe that brought us together.

Jim Fortin: She didn’t know what happened. Just like when you wrote that first book and you didn’t act with it. You didn’t know what would happen. But to me, that’s the divine mind saying, Hey, you need to play this out and I’m going to lead you there, but you’ve got to take the step and you’ve got to take the action with it.

Gary Zukav: That’s how I look at life, Jim. That’s how I look at life. And some things I can discount immediately. If I’m drawn to a woman sexually, I know I’m not going to follow that’s off the table to start with. And I don’t feel that now. But if I’m in integrity, if I’m open, if I’m loving, then life is my guide. And I see, and I let it guide me. And it always brings me to the ultimate choice that everyone makes with every choice, love or fear. And it brings me there quickly, within seconds sometimes.

Jim Fortin: My brother in law has always told me the shaman, he goes, there’s only two human emotions, love and fear. That’s all you have. Everything else is a variation of those emotions. So that’s. The path that I’ve been living as well over the years and Gary, we’re on the hour and I want to respect your time and then stay with me once we’re done for a second. But obviously people can find you on Amazon or a bookstore or wherever and your books and

Gary Zukav: they can find me. Okay, can I say, Jim, you can find me at seatofthesoul. com. That’s named after the book and we do our best to present whatever we can there.

Jim Fortin: seatofthesoul. com. And I went there last night, actually, I’m sorry.

Gary Zukav: What you sit on seat of the soul.
Jim Fortin: Yes. And we’ll put the links in the show notes and all that and send people there because you will have people going. And I see you do some programs that I think some people can, I don’t think I know they can benefit from and. I just want to tell you thank you. Thank you seriously from the heart for sharing yourself and your story and your energy with a lot of people that are going to find value here, and I’m very grateful for that.

Gary Zukav: Jim, I’m feeling the same way. You’re taking the words out of my heart, and there’s so much more we could discuss and I’d like to discuss. Linda’s soul went home to nonphysical reality last year, and that’s opened me in ways that I never could have imagined. And

Jim Fortin: Gary, I’m in no hurry. If you have, is there anything else you want to share? I’m just wanting to respect your time. And I didn’t know that she transitioned.

Gary Zukav: Oh, yes, she did. And what I’m suggesting is that we respect whatever makes a good, comfortable. time frame for people listening to a podcast to enjoy, but I’m available to you, Jim. I love what you’re doing. And I’d like to share it with you and share what I’m doing and see where we are resonant, which I feel is. Everything. But I would like to explore that because as we find our mission for being in life, our meaning for being in life, and our purpose, it all leads us in the same direction. That’s to love, to inclusiveness, to contribution, to giving, to sharing, without agenda. And if I can support you in another podcast or any other way, please let me know because I’m enjoying this immensely.

Jim Fortin: I’m not Oprah and I don’t have her following yet and I don’t want, I just do what I do. So, I definitely will be calling you back. I want to respect your time now. I don’t know what you plan for, but I definitely will reach out and I would love nothing more to have than to have you back and to visit even more.

Gary Zukav: So, I feel, thank you, Jim. I feel the same way. I feel the same way.

Jim Fortin : Stay with me once we log off and just, I want to say that I love you and I love what you’re doing and I usually don’t use this word because it’s ego based, but I’m honored to be able to sit here with you and visit. So, thank you very much, Gary.

Gary Zukav: You’re welcome. Very welcome.

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Jim Fortin

Jim Fortin

Jim is an international subconscious self-transformation and high performance expert with over two decades of expertise in brain based transformation and high performance. Using a brain based approach coupled with transformational psychology and ancient wisdom Jim has created programs that create long-term core-level life transformation in his students.

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