The Jim Fortin Podcast

EPISODE 314: “Gary Zukav Interview: Part Two”

April 3, 2024

In part two of my enlightening conversation with Gary Zukav, we continue our deep dive into the core essence of love and its transformative impact on personal growth and spiritual enlightenment. Drawing from Gary's well of wisdom, we explore the unconditional nature of love as the fundamental component of the universe, moving beyond the physical to embrace all aspects of existence with an open heart.

Through candid dialogues, we explore the notion of love as the foundational element of the universe, transcending beyond the limitations of physical perceptions and inviting us into a realm where love encompasses all, from the mundane to the divine. This episode delves into the transformative power of love to heal and bring about authentic power, urging us to look within and embark on a journey of self-discovery and alignment with our soul's purpose.

Drawing from Gary's personal evolution and his encounters with spiritual mentors, such as Ram Dass, we are guided through the intricacies of navigating life with intention, the importance of emotional awareness, and the pursuit of meaning beyond material success.

Listen, and enjoy.

Transformational Takeaway

Cultivate a life of authenticity, compassion, and purpose. Embrace the beauty of our journeys and recognize the path to genuine fulfillment.

Full Episode Transcript


You're listening to the Transform your Life from the Inside Out podcast. This is another episode with Gary Zukav and in this episode, we talk no surprise about authentic power. And we talk about developing authentic power. We talk about the frightened parts of your personality. We talk about a word that I used, and I think you're going to like his answer. We talked about managing the change and chaos in the world. I know that we all see it. And it's very challenging for a lot of people and creating a lot of fear for a lot of people. I do want to point out that the higher aspect of you and the multisensory you don’t air quote, get into the fear that's actually controlling a lot of people in the planet right now. So, we talk about a higher order and a higher function of being specifically being a multi-sensory being. And we talk about something that we all are in the middle of, and we're all experiencing this we talk about the world that's crumbling around us. And I even asked Gary because someone asked me to, how does he manage the world, crumbling around him? And I think you're going to find his answer fascinating. But he did say something that it was really interesting and I understand it the same way, but in different language from my brother-in-law the Shaman Don Xavier is that don't have a year told me that humans were evolving to a higher level of consciousness. And all of the old ways are falling away. In Gary's explanation as you'll hear about in this episode. Gary talks about, we are evolving from a five sense being, meeting the five physical senses to a multi-sensory being. And as we're doing that, the old power structures, which have been created on the planet many thousands of years ago, and we've lived in, in terms of social, society and socialization. Government structure and economic policy and world order. We've lived in artificial manmade power structures, and that's all crumbling at this point. Regardless, listen, assimilate and find how best, how you can apply what Gary and I are talking about in your own life to evolve and grow yourself. To raise your frequency and to become a multi-sensory being. Okay enjoy the episode.

Hi, I'm Jim Fortin, and you're about to start Transforming your Life from the Inside Out with this podcast. I'm widely considered the leader in Subconscious Transformation, and I've coached super achievers all around the world for over 25 years. Here you're going to find no rah-rah motivation and no hype because this podcast is a combination of Brain Science, Transformational Psychology, and Ancient Wisdom all rolled into one to take your life to levels you've never thought possible. If you're wanting a lot more in life to feel better, to heal, to have peace of mind, to feel powerful and alive, and to bring more abundance and prosperity into your life, then this podcast is for you because you're going to start learning how to master your mind and evolve your consciousness. And when you do that, anything you want then becomes possible for you. I'm glad you're here.

Jim Fortin: Okay, so in the last episode, you had talked a lot about and working with my brother in law, the shaman. That's been the number one four letter word for 27 years of my life love. And you mentioned love a lot. So, the question is a lot of times we're wondering, we're thinking, because I observed that many people, they do have love, but they love conditionally. I love you as long as you do X, Y, Z, or I want that in my life. But we don't understand for the most part as a species yet, unconditional love and real love. So, from your perspective, what is love?

Gary Zukav: What you've just described are artificial, artifacts of five century perception conditional love is a meaningless term. Love is love.

Jim Fortin: What is love?

Gary Zukav: Oh, let me give you some words that point in that direction. Love is inclusive. It accepts. It engages. It is interested. It supports without second agendas. It is all that is. Let me put it this way. Linda and I have a friend, had a friend on Maui, Ram Dass, who wrote the iconic book, Be Here Now. And we got to know him the last three years when we were both on Maui, Linda and I, and Ram Dass and his wonderful Ohana. And once while we were in his house, I noticed on one of the walls in a hall, like a frame, a glass, a frame with a glass front, but where there would be a print or a piece of artwork behind the glass was a dirty square of carpeting, like something that came out of a poorly managed building that wasn't maintained an office building that people had walked on for years. And it was framed in his glass, and I asked, what is this? AND that was done because, the story of that is that a friend of Ram Dass was asking Ram Dass, do you love my friend over here as much as you love me? And Ram Dass said, yes. I said, well, do you love that person over there as much as you love me? And Ram Dass said, yes. And he said, oh, that person over there, that stranger, that's, Shouting, do you love that person as much as you love me? And Ram Dass said again, yes. And then the friend pointed down to where they were standing in this office and said, do you love this carpet as much, this dirty carpet as much as you love me? And Ram Dass said, yes. At first, I thought that was a clever kind of Zen like teaching story. Yeah. And then I started to realize Ram Dass was not doing that. He was sharing his awareness. He was sharing his consciousness. Think about that. What kind of consciousness was Ram Dass, not was in Ram Dass, of consciousness was he that could say yes, truthfully? Jack Kornfield, who was a friend of his, and I believe may have been a student, changed the way that he taught, he teaches mindfulness meditation. If I understand Jack. Frankly, when he told me, from teaching awareness to teaching loving awareness, which is what Ram Dass described, his awareness, loving awareness. What kind of loving awareness would it be that could include with love everything that it can see? Well, obviously, some things are dirty, some things are repulsive, some things smell bad, some things are dangerous. So, is he making himself love all of those things, or is it something deeper, something far more meaningful, even easier? We all know. I don't know if we all know anything; I don't know anything like that.

Jim Fortin: That's a powerful statement.

Gary Zukav: But I don't know that I have experienced this thought before. The world must be, all be made of some kind of stuff, and we're all made of this same kind of stuff. So, what is it? Is it my, is its subatomic particles? Is it microorganisms? What is it? What is the stuff of the universe? Well, I know now. is love. There is no other stuff. There's nothing that you can put in a box and ship across the country to a friend and say, here's a box of love for you. When that runs out, let me know. I'll send you some more. You can't do that. Love is, the universe is love, everything is love. I didn't have the consciousness I have now when Linda and I were having dinner with Ram Dass, so I didn't have a chance to ask him this question, but I think he knew that he was looking at the stuff of the universe, wherever his eyes fell.

Jim Fortin: Do you think that people like Ram Dass, and I'm going to include you in that category, that they come with a I don't know the right word, but a spiritual mission to help other people. Here's the word awaken to higher function of mind, self-consciousness.

Gary Zukav: I can't speak for Ram Dass. For me, all I thought about in the first half of my life was. Sex from women, motorcycles, for me, music, drugs, for me, and I admired myself, but I didn't really, I didn't really admire myself at all. In fact, that's why I was so prickly. So, if some, the street name, the street word is macho. Macho is a word for someone who's so frightened he doesn't even know he's frightened.

Jim Fortin: Yeah.

Gary Zukav: So, in those days If you just said, do you think you entered the earth school, Gary with a mission to help people wake up, I would say, well, I'm awake for one thing, and I don't think you're very cool myself. I mean, I, there would be no way that I could relate to that question. And it wasn't until I met the first non the nonphysical teacher that became part of my life. It was not until then, and it was in 1985.

Jim Fortin: Was that Genesis?

Gary Zukav: Yes.

Jim Fortin: Okay.

Gary Zukav: And that I had a thought of anything else. And the first time I talked to Genesis, it was through a channel, and the channel Spoke the words of Genesis for an entire afternoon with so much time We had to break once in the morning and the break again and then once in the afternoon But I went back and I've studied Transcription and that was the first time that I heard that I first entertained the thought that I might have a purpose For living and I'm writing about this now. I want to share all of it So there's nothing mystical or mysterious about it. It's simply a sharing from one multi-sensory individual to others. From the heart to the heart, but it wasn't until then that I was introduced to the idea of first. I won't I'll say he, but I have no idea if this is a he or she. I asked what are you? And he said, I'm an impersonal energy dynamic. Some people even give me names as though I were a personality, but I'm an impersonal energy dynamic and I've participated in the evolution of galaxies. And in the evolution of your planet now. And I think all of those at the same time now that I know so, he began to say things like a task or a mission and that piqued my curiosity. What do you mean task or mission and who gave me this task and mission?

Jim Fortin: Does it have a motorcycle on the task? Right?

Gary Zukav: And I just thought, what do you what is this? It's very interesting. And then he told me you're, you have a task, you have a mission. And he told me that every soul when it incarnates voluntarily, contrary to popular thought, because life can be so very difficult in the art school. But incarnation, into the Earth's school is voluntary and that it's not easy to come by. Once Genesis told me if you knew what needs to be accomplished to have a life on this planet, you would walk the planet every moment with appreciation and gratitude. But as it is, there are millions of people upon your planet who regret being on it, who have painful experiences of abuse, of humility, of torture, of imprisonment, of sickness, of despair. So that's what I wanted to share as I tell you this part. Before incarnation, each soul confers with other souls with its teachers and with the universe about this coming incarnation if it occurs. There is nothing deterministic about it. It's more if certain conditions come into being and certain other conditions come into being then you two, these two souls will come into contact. And if other conditions and other circumstances come into being, then other souls will come into contact with you. There's no twin flame, there's no something waiting for you, there's not even a future waiting for you. You create the future with your choices, and the soul gives to the incarnation the parts of itself that it desires to heal, so to speak, through the choices of its soul incarnation in the earth school through the free will of its personality. And it also gives to the personality parts of itself that are already aligned with itself. And these are the loving parts. Gratitude. I mentioned them. Appreciation. Caring. Patience. Contentment. All of the universe. And as you align yourself with those, you bring the energy of your soul into the earth school. And that is the purpose of your life. To bring the energy of your soul consciously into the earth school. That is the creation of authentic power. And that is now our way of evolving. That is now our evolutionary necessity. So, I did not know until I was Midway through my life, which, whatever that would be, I was born in 42 and this was 85, and I'm 81. You do the math. That's about halfway through to where I am now, and I had no idea of anything about any of this, much less a mission, a contract with the universe. But it is a contract with the universe. It's a sacred contract. Those are Genesis words. Genesis words, and I didn't know about mine or that I had one, but I do now. And as soon as I heard it, he said, your contract with the universe is to master and embody authentic power and help teach it to others. I liked it the first time I heard it. Have liked it ever since.

Jim Fortin: I say, who wouldn't like that? I'll take that mission. I'm kidding, but yeah that's powerful.

Gary Zukav: That's why it felt good. It felt right, Jim. I didn't think about it. He told me and it felt good.

Jim Fortin: That's why I had asked you off camera a lot after our first time, we talked about the soul contract or experience between you and Oprah's your soul and that Oprah was one of the most impactful people of a generation in terms of getting people just to be nice to each other and to open up and to think and to evolve and to grayhead, I mean, she's made a huge impact for a lot of people at the, at the multisensory level. And I know that she said at

Gary Zukav: the 5th century level too.

Jim Fortin: Yes. And she said that if it wasn't for you, then she wouldn't have gone on to do what she did in the direction she wanted to go. And that's why I was asking you just more, not even rhetorically, just out of curiosity. And we wouldn't know that is. I wonder what agreement your souls had that you bringing this mission would meet up with her at a certain space time continuum, so to speak the word time, but a certain intersection to bring, because you've impacted tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of people. So, she was part of that facilitation. And I'm wondering what agreement the souls had to have that happen.

Gary Zukav: I do not know, but I do know that it was meaningful, purposeful. And appropriate, that Oprah and I came into connection with each other in the way that we did. And when something like that happens, And that's a very exceptional experience, obviously. Well, it was in my life. I never took it personally. In other words, I never felt grateful to Oprah. I love Oprah. I admire her. Admire is too small a word. It's a very small word when it comes to what I feel for Oprah.Her power, that's authentic power. When I look back at, let me put it this way. Whenever something happens to me in my life, I say to the universe, thank you. Whether it's that pain that I felt when Linda's soul returned home, or whether the surprise I felt when someone that I didn't know called me to tell me about a television show and said, her name was Oprah, and then. I began to experience things that I hadn't before in terms of being able to communicate and share these things with so many people. I would say to the universe, thank you. I don't know if I've ever said thank you to Oprah because she wasn't doing it for me. She wasn't doing it for herself. She was doing it because her heart guided her because she was following her meaning and for everyone that's listening to this podcast or watching it and I know Many of you probably all of you would like to know what your sacred contract with the universe is if you don't already know I would suggest that you follow your meaning use that as your inner compass, whatever it is It's needle is always pointing toward meaning. Follow it. See where it takes you. It may not take you to meaning immediately, but it'll take you to something that's more meaningful than what you're doing now. And then that will lead you, and that will lead you. Where will it lead you? It'll lead you to love. It'll lead you to the creation of authentic power. It'll lead you to consciously using your life to align it with your soul and to experience power authentic. And then to share it with others, not to proselytize, not to teach, not to convert. That is not a part in any way of authentic power, but because you feel in the moment it's appropriate. Your part is recognizing appropriate timing, clear motivation, and trust. Genesis told me once, remember these things, Gary, when you teach. You teach not to impress, but to empower, not yourself, but others. Say that to yourself if you feel like teaching something. And as a further guide at another time, he told me, if you say anything with an intention other than to increase the admiration, of the universe at large, or respect, or something like that, of the universe at large, you have an agenda, and fear has entered the picture.

Jim Fortin: I've been on a lot of interviews myself, and the worst ones to be on is when the host doesn't help me at all. And it's basically, okay, where do they want me to go? Where do I go? Et cetera. So, I'm just flowing with you and we're just going. And I just appreciate everything that's coming from you. And I'm sure listeners do well because I am often asked, Jim, what, how do I find my purpose? And so many people in the world we live in talk about what your purpose. They call it a vocation. That's not a purpose. No. And on the last, I didn't watch a lot of Oprah. I did not, but I saw you on Oprah, like in 91 or 92. And it was by accident that I saw you because I was just walking somewhere and the TV was on there and it wasn't at home. It was out in public. And I'm like, I'll just watch this for a bit. And on her last season I did watch half of the episodes. And she said in 25 years of doing this, I've learned that people have three questions. Oprah, sorry, I know that you love me and Gary both. And if you I'm kidding, if you watch this, I might get the questions wrong. Do you hear me or do you see me? Does it mean anything to you? And do I matter? And the one about matter is I did it for a lot of years, Gary. And I tell people this, the motivational speakers and this whole clan of people, they always talk about, you have to have your why. I could never get my mind around why I'm on the planet. It's just, it's more of an analytical exercise. And when I look at meaning that excites me is looking at what's my meaning on the planet and my meaning is when I had the stroke. I could not talk for several hours afterwards. I remember being in the E. R. I couldn't talk and then I passed out. They took me on a helicopter. And a couple of days later, I woke up in the I. C. U. And afterwards, the doctors tried to plant a lot of fear in me about Oh, you could have a second stroke and all these kinds of things. I won't go into that here. But the only fear that I let up. Affect me was because I didn't care if I mean, I did care if I left the planet, but I'm okay because I'm going to leave the planet and I'll leave when I'm done with my work on the planet. But the most fearful thing to me was. What if I can't talk? How am I going to help you? This is my meaning this gives me meaning to be of spiritual service to other people. And I think a lot of people don't understand that it's about the meaning, not about the external things, not about the money, not about the popularity, which is why many people are in our industry. They want the recognition, the adulation. It's about none of that. It's about the meaning that I bring to the experience of other people. Anyway, I don't know where that came from, but I wanted to share that I can resonate, and hopefully people listening can too. It's about the meaning.

Gary Zukav: I've learned that I can't affect other people. I don't have that power. Only they, I can't change other people. Only they have that power. So, I do my best. To share like we're doing now. Yeah, without a second agenda. Yeah, if I have one, I try to see it and move beyond the control of it.

Jim Fortin: When we started talking, I apologize for interrupting what you're telling me is very congruent because. I could sense I could feel when we talked, you were very loving and very open. It's like, what can I do to assist you? And I knew when you said that you were very genuine about that. And to me, that's reflective of the meaning in your life is what can I do to assist with an open heart? Other people have a better experience or are more aware experience on the planet.

Gary Zukav: I don't really ask those questions, Jim. I think about them sometimes, of course, because that's what I love to think about. Well, of course, but I'm back to those 3 questions that Oprah said. She realized everybody wants to you hear me. Do you see me? Do I matter to you? Before Linda soul returned home, I didn't really hear people as well as I hear them. And I didn't really see them. And if I did, often it was in terms of what I could get. And I wasn't calculating. Something in me was calculating, if that's a better way to put it. And do I matter to you? And I would have to say to that person that I was, I thought the opposite for all of these questions. I thought the opposite. That I hear you, I see you, you matter. But I'm looking back on it now from where I am now, and I'm seeing things about me that I couldn't see at the time. Genesis said, and they're painful, so painful, and especially about the way I could relate to Linda. I see now how I could have supported her so much better. I couldn't have loved her more. I just loved her, but I could have helped her. I could have supported her. And Genesis said, when you look at these things, they're not, you're not seeing them in order to contract. Their purpose is not for you to contract, but to learn from them and apply them. And so that's what I that's what I strive to do, no matter what they are. I know I can answer Oprah's three questions that she perceived in all people easily now. Can you hear me? Yes. Yes, I can hear you. Can you see me? Yes, more than I ever thought it was possible to see somebody. I can see the movement of a soul. I can see the nature of human consciousness. I can see pain in you. I can see joy in you. I can see where you're not aware because you're obsessed or compulsive or judgmental or blaming and I can see the pain that you're in. Yes, I can see you and I love you. I can see that you're a soul. I can see that, not see it here. It's not, no, has nothing to do with this. It has to do with this. Do I matter to you? Yes. Yes. It's only when frightened parts of my personality enter the picture that something else could matter to me more. Do I have frightened parts of my personality? I do. We talked about this earlier. Every personality has frightened parts. But when they're not in control of me, you matter. My best example of this to me, for me, is Linda. Once, she slipped on ice. Our son was with us, and she was thrown in the air for a minute, and then, bam, fell to the ground and hit her head on a railing, like a railroad tie that was used for landscaping. And our son was so concerned that she had broken her neck, but she hadn't, and she recovered. But I knew in that moment, I knew that my life would change, that I would spend the rest of my life caring for Linda. And not as a martyr, not as a martyr. I just knew it. It's what I wanted to do. I haven't had a time to test it, but I think would I give my life for Linda's? I think so. Let me put it this way. I've had dreams, maybe, of if I ever saw Linda falling from a cliff, I would go after her. That's what I felt. This may all be fantasy, but the answer is this. I'm working toward becoming someone who can say all the time, you matter to me. I can say it to a lot of people now that I couldn't say to anyone except Linda before

Jim Fortin: it's powerful. That's extremely and that also, I'm curious here would making again semantics, having other people matter. Would that also be in your thinking, which I have found in my own life, in my journey, in my experience, the key to love and loving myself is accepting myself. Would you find that accepting people automatically or helps to make them matter in your experience?

Gary Zukav: Not the way you put it, Jim. For me, it's the same thing. If you can't love yourself, if you don't, you can. If you don't love yourself, you won't love other people because they're not separate. So, if you also say I'm going to start to love myself so I can love other people, that's not it. That's the pursuit of external power. Yeah, that's a manipulation. Or if you say it the other way around, I'm going to love other people. I'm going to learn how to do this. So, I can love me. That's not it either. That's not it. Creating authentic power is it. Learning to distinguish love from fear in yourself, and choosing love no matter what is occurring in yourself, or what is occurring outside of yourself. Choosing love. Experimenting with that. Not teaching, just sharing when appropriate. It's often not appropriate. I accepted your invitation because I could feel the bigness of your heart. I could feel that for you to have a podcast, and to have many people listening to it, that you would be drawing those people. And those are the kind of people that would be appropriate for me.To share with and to experiment with sharing some of the things that are new to my consciousness also, because we're all on this journey together. Everyone knows that, but the realization of it is even deeper than knowing of it.

Jim Fortin: Yeah, for sure.

Gary Zukav: Did that answer your question, Jim?

Jim Fortin: Yeah, it did. I think it did. Yeah, it did. Because so many people struggle. I see it all around me all the time. So many people struggle with self-acceptance. So, from your perspective, would that be because they're more engaged with the frightful part of their personality than who and what they really are, which is love? Would that be why they struggle with self-acceptance?

Gary Zukav: Essentially, yes, the way I've been taught is that, and have experienced to a certain, to the extent of my life, is that there exists within, well, I've been told there exists within every human, the pain of powerlessness. The pain of powerlessness is the pain of wanting to be, to belong and not belonging, wanting to be accepted and not being accepted, not being chosen for the team when you were young. And it's the pain of Wanting to love and knowing that you're not capable of loving, or wanting to be loved, needing to be loved, and knowing that you're not lovable. It's the, it's not wanting anyone to see you the way you see yourself inside, because they wouldn't want anything to do with you. It's the feeling of being intrinsically flawed, inherently defective. It’s self-loathing, and it's extremely painful. Five sensory humans have the pain of powerlessness and multi-sensory humans have the pain of powerlessness. The difference is that when five sensory humans experience it, they reach outward into the external world in order to mask that pain. They try to get a new friend, a new boyfriend, a new girlfriend, a new car, a new family, to make a new business. When multi-sensory humans, in other words, they pursue external power. When five sensory humans experience the pain of powerlessness, they pursue external power to mask that pain. When multi-sensory humans experience the pain of powerlessness, they look inside and change themselves. They create authentic power. Every frightened part of your personality is an expression of the pain of powerlessness. And every frightened part of your personality pursues external power. That is the nature and the definition of a frightened part. By now, I'm sure that everyone understands, or at least recognizes, the assumption, and in my case, it's true. It's an observation that a personality is not a single thing that sometimes gets happy and sometimes gets sad and sometimes gets lonely and sometimes is joyful. It is complex, almost like a mandala. It's got many different parts. Some of them originate in fear and some of them originate in love, but these different parts see the same external world from a different perspective, and so their experiences are different, and creating authentic power gives you the ability to recognize when you are in a part of your personality, and you're always in one, a frightened or a loving part, and to recognize when it's a frightened part. And choose to shift your attention to the interior of a loving part. That is power. That is authentic power. Authentic power is the experience of moving through the earth school with an empowered heart without attachment to the outcome.

Jim Fortin: How to stay out of fear. Would you say that it's a recognition when that part of our personality is getting into fear?

Gary Zukav: The question is not how to stay out of fear, the fear, the question, if you have one, is what can I do to move beyond the control of this part of my personality? Okay. And there's even better questions. What can I learn about myself from this part of my personality? One thing that you'll learn quickly. It's that you cannot give the gifts you're born to give when you are controlled by a frightened part of your personality, when you must make more money, when you must have a bigger home, when you must have sex, when you must have recognition, when you must have acknowledgement. When you experience those things in yourself, they are your opportunities to grow spiritually. They're not your obstacles to spiritual growth, Jim. They're your opportunities. They're your avenues to spiritual growth. And Oprah told me something so beautiful once. At that time Linda and I had met a friend who was a very famous rock star in his day, Kenny Loggins, and Kenny had been invited to be on the cover of People's Magazine, and he was. And I got an invitation after I started doing shows with Oprah to be on the cover of People's Magazine. And I talked about it with Linda and neither one of us liked at all the thought of inviting so many people into our home. Well, right now we do that anyway. This is our living room and we love inviting people into it now. But that's what we felt at the time. We were living in Mount Shasta in a little cabin and we decided not to because I called Oprah and thought, I wanted to know, what do you think about that invitation that I have? And she said, it's just cotton candy, Gary. It's just cotton candy.

Jim Fortin: What did she mean by that?

Gary Zukav: It means nothing. It means nothing, Gary. It's ephemeral. It melts away. It's not even worth buying. In fact, she might've even gone so far as to think it'll make you sick. It's pure sugar. There's nothing good about it and there's nothing lasting about it. That was my first take. It's nothing substantial. It's nothing lasting. It's nothing even worth buying. That's crystallized what I was thinking about this invitation.

Jim Fortin: I'm still cracking up that when she first called you, you didn't know who she was back in the like 92 or whatever it was, because back then so many artists are sorry, authors were clamoring to get on the Oprah show. And so, Oprah calls you and you don't even know who the womanist. That's pretty comical.

Gary Zukav: It was later than that too, by the way, the first shows that we did, the first show was broadcast Christmas Eve afternoon in 98, so the shows you're seeing were about a decade later than you were thinking you were saying, okay, but those were the shows and living in Mount Shasta. I had a television set, but we didn't have a cable. We had cable, or did we, I can't remember. I don't think we even had cable. This was I moved there in 87 and it's a small town. It was probably and but I did have a VCR. So, I would run videos. And I could watch movies. So, I didn't know about the Oprah Winfrey show or about Oprah. I had heard that name sounded vaguely familiar, but that was my acquaintance with Oprah at that time.

Jim Fortin: I find that interesting. You remind me of a friend of mine I've known for 25 years. And he actually has an endowed chair. You're also recognized by them, the World Business Academy. And he has an endowed chair, the Akio Matsumura endowed chair at the world business Academy. And he's the same way he's oblivious to names or personalities or any of that, because his whole life is about the focus of spiritual evolution of the younger generation. So when you told me that I got a kick out of that story that you weren't even aware who the person was when most people like, Oh, my gosh, Oprah called and they're running around like crazy because Oprah called and you're eh, okay, who so that to me is what I call spirit at work. So, questions, some simple questions here is Nina wanted me to ask you, how do you define the difference between spirit and soul?

Gary Zukav: I don't.

Jim Fortin: Okay. So, next question, does the soul speak to us via intuition and inspiration? I think we answered that.

Gary Zukav: Your nonphysical teacher does. Your soul, let's start with intuition, because intuition is a faculty that comes to the forefront in multi-sensory perception. It is a major part of multi-sensory perception, which is the ability to see beyond the limits of the five senses. Five senses together form a single sensory system whose object of detection is physical reality. Now we're acquiring another sensory system. We are multi-sensory. Intuition is like a radio receiver that can receive different stations. One of the stations it can receive, you might say, is your own higher self. Your higher self is personality, soul communication. Your intuition can also receive information from other souls in advance of your own. Your intuition can also receive information from your nonphysical teachers. That's with a capital T. You might say that the first, when you're interpreting, you're channeling your higher self. That's eating at home. But when you're in touch with nonphysical teachers, and their benefit that they can provide in the way of compassion and wisdom, that's more analogous to ordering out, but it's all the same faculty intuition. Did that help?

Jim Fortin: No, that's powerful. And I was going to ask you on that question there. Listening to you, and I'm hearing this, and that's actually I've never heard it explained that way. But a lot of people listening are probably wondering, and I'll share just a thought and then I'd love your perspective, they would like to open themself up to higher awareness and nonphysical teacher, et cetera. Many people are saying, I want that. And I was thinking back to when you said this came to you, but you were so immersed in the 3D personality, the physical, the five senses and all of that. Do you think that we have to be more open in terms of further along the evolutionary scale for the higher energies to come to us, the nonphysical teachers?

Gary Zukav: That would help, but chances also tell me about intuition and trying to cultivate it. He said if you're eating broccoli, tofu in order to develop your intuition, but if you're judging other people, you might as well be eating beefsteak or roast beef. What I'm saying is just to say, I'm going to be open to higher intuition where there isn't higher and a lower intuition. I mean, there is intuition, but if the intention to open is there. That's good. That's good. But you need to know your intention. What's behind it? I asked Genesis once. How do I prepare for a conscious death? I want to be conscious when I die. I want to see the whole thing. I want to experience it all. How do I do that? And Genesis said, I would suggest that you learn how to live consciously.

Jim Fortin: I've never heard anybody say it that way. I want to be aware. I want to be conscious of my death. Back to you talking about Linda earlier, my brother in law was once talking to me and he said, when you look at death, meaning with your five senses, it can be a very painful thing. But when you see death for the cosmicness of what it is and the energy, it's the most beautiful thing you will ever see. And I think that's what you're wanting or saying you want to experience is the beauty of the entire transition in the experience.

Gary Zukav: You're making it more lovely than I felt at the time. I just wanted to experience it with awareness. But for one thing, just to be clear, in my understanding, the soul decides when it will return home, not the personality. Often the personality doesn't agree, usually doesn't agree, but it's the soul's decision, and it is the return home of a part of your soul that incarnated. It is not the end of your soul. That is a more

Jim Fortin: When my mom passed in 2012, my brother in law, Don Xavier can see, he can energetically see and prior to her passing, she had a lung cancer that metastasized into her brain. And prior to that, we were sitting in the living room with her and he told her, he goes, he used to call her mom. He goes, mom, don't worry, you're going to be fine. And I knew he could see because I've experienced and she passed. I don't know, 6 months later and I said to him, how come you told her she was going to be fine and she interpreted that as well. It's going to pass and I'm going to be on the planet. I said, how come you told her she was going to be fine and you knew she was going to pass. And he said, because her ego wants to stay. Her 3D wants to stay, but her soul is ready to go. And when the soul is ready to go, you've got to let the soul do what the soul needs to do. And that's aligned with what you're saying is because there was another question that somebody asked me, but we don't choose the soul chooses as I understand when we incarnate and when we leave and it's not up to our 3D ego, either one is my understanding.

Gary Zukav: I understand that too. For example, I was taught that when Linda's soul went home in this way, I mentioned I was by her side when she had a stroke. I mentioned that I called the hospital, the ambulance and it came quickly and then that we went to the regional medical center directly and that as soon as I could get into the ER, the surgeon was already there and he took her directly into the OR. And then explained, I couldn't do it. I was told also that when the soul decides to go home, nothing can stop it. Yeah. Jim, this was a great consolation, but I still hurt beyond measure. The universe arranged this departure of Linda's soul so that there was no possibility of my saying yes, but if. I couldn't say yes, but if I hadn't been with her, maybe she'd have had it in the afternoon and had to lie there for a night. That didn't happen. If I could say yes, but maybe the ambulance had a flat tire or it couldn't get here and it couldn't get her to the hospital, but it did get her to the hospital very fast. And I couldn't say, but if that, I couldn't. Then when she got to this busy regional medical center, she was immediately put into a room In the ER section, and the surgeon was there, so I wouldn't, I couldn't say, well, the surgeon could have been in another operation that would have lasted three hours, but he wasn't, it was with my beloved, and then he was the best in this part of the country at endovascular thrombectomies. There’s none better. And this is not a big hospital. This is a huge regional medical center. It is a big hospital with a lot of big things around it, and he couldn't do it. And that's why I realized when Linda went into the ICU room that Linda's soul is going home. And anything else I could do, think to do, want to do, pray to do, would be trying to push the river. So, my perception is, in many ways, the same as your cousin's. Genesis also told me the thought that you're thinking when you return home will determine your awareness at the moment of your death. But let's talk about these things later, because they're opening new conversations.

Jim Fortin: I'm making a note. They're wrapping up on time. So, we can pick that up on our next call, because I would love to explore and I'm just asking you questions and letting you go because there's. I know you do a lot of these, but there's a lot of things coming that a lot of people need to hear. And I don't feel like I need to be interrupting you. So that's why I'm so quiet on my end. So

Gary Zukav: Thank you, Jim. I appreciate the questions and I appreciate the questions from your community.

Jim Fortin: Okay. I've got some more, but they're simple ones. I’ve got,

Gary Zukav: I love questions more than anything. I just, that's why I love live events.

Jim Fortin: Okay, well, then okay, then next time we talk, I will have some more questions for you. But a lot of them were more maybe superficial questions or things that might not have been impactful or more impactful with an answer there. I think there's simpler things, but we'll pick up also, because somebody had asked me about her partner and she was frustrated with her husband and she's all about Spiritual growth, and he's not. We pick this up on our next conversation, and she's like, how do I manage myself when I'm growing and growing, and he's not growing. So those are the kind of questions I will bring to you next time we talk.
Gary Zukav: Okay. And we can also talk about love, power, and death. These are good things too.

Jim Fortin: These are all my favorite topics because the best thing that ever happened to me was when I had this. I didn't tell you this. I had a heart failure prior. So, and then I had a stroke and then I topped it off with a whipped cream Sunday with coved twice. So, and in that time, I had learned that hey, whatever's going to happen is going to happen. But I learned to see more about myself in this experience of life, and I love talking about transition death, but in our culture, people find it so morbid. And I'm like, this is the most beautiful topic you can talk about because there's power. There's authentic power to me when you explore this aspect of your entire experience. So next time we talk, I'd love to talk more about it.

Gary Zukav: Let's do that, Jim. This is, our culture is changing. Our culture is changing fast because our species is changing fast, which means the Thai culture, French culture, German culture, Chinese culture, Swahili culture, it's all changing. This is species wide. Yeah. This is the context against which all is happening. This is the backdrop against which all is happening. This is the energy in which all is happening. It is the unprecedented, epic transformation of human consciousness itself. It's very exciting.

Jim Fortin: Okay so hopefully you enjoyed this episode as much as I really from the heart. Enjoy doing these episodes with Gary and bringing them to you. Come on back. We have eight episodes in this series, four episodes of Gary and I, and then four episodes of me commenting and taking apart further what Gary and I have talked about. So, make sure you come on back and listen to the entire series. And if you're new to the podcast, I tell people because we often think that the older material is not as relevant. If you're new to the podcast, I tell people go all the way back to the beginning as well. And start listening there. You will find that there was life-changing content all the way through these podcast episodes. Thanks for listening and I'll catch you over on another episode. Bye-bye.

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Jim Fortin

Jim is an international subconscious self-transformation and high performance expert with over two decades of expertise in brain based transformation and high performance. Using a brain based approach coupled with transformational psychology and ancient wisdom Jim has created programs that create long-term core-level life transformation in his students.

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