The Jim Fortin Podcast

EPISODE 316: “Gary Zukav Interview: Part Three”

April 17, 2024

In part three of my chat with Gary Zukav, we dive into how relationships and self-awareness shape our spiritual journey. If you've ever wondered about the impact of your daily choices on your personal growth, this episode is for you.

Gary talks about the real work it takes to grow emotionally and spiritually. He points out that facing our emotions head-on and being mindful can lead us to a richer, more intentional life. This is a game changer for anyone looking to deepen their relationships and find more meaning in life.

He also sheds light on how our intentions shape our experiences and the world around us. Gary invites us to rethink how we approach our life's path and the energy we bring to our interactions. It's about making choices that truly reflect who we are and the life we want to create.

Listen & enjoy!

Transformational Takeaway

Master your internal energies and focus on your intentions, transform your approach to life, leading to more profound connections and sustained personal growth.

Full Episode Transcript


Jim Fortin: You're listening to the Transform your Life from the Inside Out podcast. This is another episode with Gary Zukav and in this episode, we talk. No surprise. About authentic power. And we talk about developing authentic power. We talk about the frightened parts of your personality. We talk about a word that I used, and I think you're going to like his answer. We talked about managing the change and chaos in the world. I know that we all see it. And it's very challenging for a lot of people and creating a lot of fear for a lot of people. I do want to point out that the higher aspect of you. And the multisensory you doesn't air quote, get into the fear that's actually controlling a lot of people in the planet right now. So we talk about a higher order and a higher function of being specifically being a multi-sensory being. And we talk about something that we all are in the middle of, and we're all experiencing this. We talk about the world that's crumbling around us. And I even asked Gary because someone asked me to, how does he manage the world, crumbling around him? And I think you're going to find his answer fascinating. But he did say something that it was really interesting and I understand it the same way, but in different language from my brother-in-law the Shaman Don Xavier is that don't have a years told me that humans were evolving to a higher level of consciousness and all of the old ways are falling away.

And Gary's explanation as you'll hear about in this episode. Gary talks about, we are evolving from a five sense being, meaning the five physical senses to a multi-sensory being. And as we're doing that, the old power structures, which have been created on the planet many thousands of years ago, and we've lived in, in terms of social society and socialization. Government structure and economic policy and world order. We've lived in artificial manmade power structures, and that's all crumbling at this point. Regardless, listen, assimilate. And find how best, how you can apply what Gary and I are talking about in your own life to evolve and grow yourself. To raise your frequency and to become a multi-sensory being okay,Enjoy the episode.

Hi, I'm Jim Fortin, and you're about to start Transforming your Life from the Inside Out with this podcast. I'm widely considered the leader in Subconscious Transformation, and I've coached super achievers all around the world for over 25 years. Here you're going to find no rah rah motivation and no hype because this podcast is a combination of Brain Science, Transformational Psychology, and Ancient Wisdom all rolled into one to take your life to levels you've never thought possible. If you're wanting a lot more in life to feel better, to heal, to have peace of mind, to feel powerful and alive, and to bring more abundance and prosperity into your life, then this podcast is for you because you're going to start learning how to master your mind and evolve your consciousness. And when you do that, anything you want then becomes possible for you. I'm glad you're here.

Jim Fortin: Okay. So we're back again with my new friend, somebody that's becoming a new friend, Gary Zukav and good to see you, Gary.

Gary Zukav: Thank you, Jim. It's really good to be on your podcast again.

Jim Fortin: Thank you, Gary. I'm honored to have you here. And you and I were just talking prior to starting this episode and something personal to me. And I want to take us back to 1996. I was in Mexico with my brother in law, Don Xavier. We used to do ceremonies that all the sacred sites on the planet on the spring equinox, which was a couple of days ago. We've been inside literally Keopsa, the Great Pyramid, Teotihuacan, Palenque ,Haleakalā Uluru, and major power sites, Machu Picchu on the planet, but in 1996, I was struggling with a lot of personal things. And I was walking on the beach and crying and I walked into Don Xavier's room later that day. And all he did was look at me and put his hand on his heart and he said, and the gentlest voice, just be. And that was it. And you and I were talking about a couple of minutes ago and you said, just be. And that's carried with me throughout a lifetime. And I might've lost sight of that to some degree. What does it mean for people listening to just be?

Gary Zukav: Well, the most simple thing to say is don't do anything, but it's more than that. If you have a blank mind, that's what you, just be when you just be. If you're thinking about pornography. That's what you're just being. If you're thinking about what could go wrong in your life, that's what you're just being. If you're thinking about how you can support or love someone, that's what you're just being. It was probably about, I've mentioned that I'm a different person now because of changes that happened to me after my beloved Linda Francis, my spiritual partner and life partner, So went home.
Those changes that have happened in me. I'm grateful for them. and I followed, as I have, the mentorship of the two teachers that Linda and I have. and then several months ago, one of the teachers said to me, You have entered a new phase of your evolution. Work this day. And I thought, well. what does that mean? He said, you will no longer need to record, transcribe, and study. What I tell you or what I tell Linda, and by tell he doesn't mean instruct, we don't get instructions, only . It means you will not need to do those things anymore because whatever I share with you, you will partake of.
And then nothing happened for a while. And then I asked, well, what should I do? And the other teacher said, do nothing, just be. So, my awareness has been expanding in ways that are so fulfilling, troubling, and exciting to me all at the same time. And I know they're going in the same direction, freedom and love. But now, you might say that's my modus operandi, just be, but that doesn't mean that I don't do anything. I haven't become a vegetable. I like exercising. I like loving friends. I like being with them. I'm aware of my intention. To the extent that I'm possible, that, that I can, and I can a lot, and the only two intentions in the earth school are love and fear. So when I say something, I strive to be aware of the intention with which I'm saying that. Is it coming from love, or is it coming from fear? If it's coming from love, it'll be coming from gratitude, or appreciation, or caring, or reverence for life. If it's coming from fear, it'll be coming from competitiveness, superiority, inferiority, need to please, need to gain. and the way I look at an intention, It's a quality of consciousness, it's not a goal. So when you speak, by you I'm talking to everyone on our podcast now, when you speak, when you share, what's your intention? Is it to be impressive and to impress? Or is it to give, to support? My teacher told me once, he said, Gary, when you, remember this, when you teach, you teach not to impress, but to empower. Not yourself, but others. You can do all that and just be. Being means letting your life be. Let your life guide you. And that doesn't mean to be mindless. You're aware. You're responsible for your choices and you always will be.
But you can enter a more relaxed way of being in the world.

Jim Fortin: Yeah.

Gary Zukav: You can accomplish more by just being, it sounds, it sounds paradoxical And you can by trying.

Jim Fortin: Don Xavier has told me that, I'll just tell you what he said, whether or not it resonates with you or anyone listening, he said, we're obviously evolving as a species and in consciousness. And in the third dimension, we had to do things. We had to write things down. We had to take action. And we had to do all these things. But in the 5th dimension, he said it's It's reverse. It's do nothing. It's actually hold the intention and be in that space and the universe will organize itself around that. So he gives the old world of having to go do thing. It's no longer exist, but we don't know that as a species yet. So he said what you said, but in a little bit different way, but he's always said to me. And you gave it a new dimension in our personal talk prior, just be, and I tell people, whatever you are, as long as you're not helping people, just hurting people, just be that whatever it is, and be it well. So thank you for that. Expanding on that.

Gary Zukav: You're welcome. And I agree with everything that. your cousin has told you. I agree.

Jim Fortin: It's my brother in law. My sister's husband.

Gary Zukav: But I agree with everything that Don Xavier your brother in law has told you.

Jim Fortin: Yeah, just be but one of my coaches and he always talks about intention. And, and, and will one of my coaches one time about 15 years ago, she said to me, Jim, and it was just a group approach coaching program. She said, what is your intention behind saying whatever it was I was saying back then. And what I've recognized back then is my intention was often to be right. And I've learned over the years that before I opened my big mouth, the first question I asked myself is what is my intention for wanting to speak this? Is it wanting to control? Is it wanting to be right? Or is it to add something that's loving and supportive of what they're saying? Any thoughts on that?

Gary Zukav: I agree with everything. And also, I feel that, I want to say again, I agree with your brother in law. He sounds like, I agree with him. The one thing I might suggest to add to something that you said is that, but we don't know how to do that. And what I would add is that we are learning how to do that right now. There is a transformation of human consciousness that began a generation or so ago and will continue for another couple of generations. And we are learning, not learning in the way that most people think of learning. We are experiencing how to do these very things. That's the new human consciousness. And it is remarkable, it is not understandable, but it is experienceable, experienceable. And that is what I love to share, is this new consciousness, because that's the direction that we're all going. So, everything that I share, and by the way, I want to say again, and maybe at the beginning of each of our, uh, podcasts together, that I don't, ask anyone who's listening to us to take anything that I say as true because I say it.
But if I say anything that you resonate with, then experiment with it. And if that, produces what you want and experiment some more because that's what you have your life for is to experiment. And if you don't resonate with it let it go. So

Jim Fortin: ironically, ironically, Don Xavier says the same thing to me and people he works with don't believe anything. I say, play with it, look at it, explore if it works great. If it doesn't great, but don't listen to me. So he's mirroring you.

Gary Zukav: Okay. I think that he's getting what he's sharing with you the same place that I'm getting what I'm sharing with you.

Jim Fortin: He gets it from the beings.

Gary Zukav: Well, I, however you call it, it is, it is compassion and wisdom, beyond what we can imagine. Give to one another. It's beyond the personality.

Jim Fortin: Yeah.

Gary Zukav: I could say I get it from a, an impersonal energy dynamic of compassion and wisdom, but ultimately and intimately, which are the same thing.
Jim Fortin: Yeah.

Gary Zukav: It's the universe.

Jim Fortin: It's, see, yeah. It's what he, it's always the universe. It's always divine energies is where it comes from. He has, like, you have genesis. There are beings that assist him, and even when I ask him things. I'll tell you a little secret before we ever did anything together. I asked him about you. And I said, is this okay? Someone energetically to work with. And he came back with a positive report on you or we'd not be talking. And, but he, he says, when I asked him things, he's like, well, I don't know. Let me go sit in my healing room and I will check and he'll come back in a day or two or so and say, okay, here's what their agenda is. This is what you want or not want, or, you know, they're a great person to work with or maybe you, want to reconsider But he also says the same thing I go to, I go to spirit, I go to divine mind to get the guidance and the wisdom. And I've watched him over the years. He won't do anything, outside of normal life, physical life, eating and just normal life without getting guidance on it. That's why I had mentioned Wayne Dyer wanted to meet him years ago and he goes, let me check. And he was guided. No, it's not someone that I need to connect with at this point, but he went to get guidance for it. So thank you for that.
Okay. Let me segue from the episode for just one moment. A long while back gary asked me in a conversation we were having how he could support me. And I knew he meant that from the heart and I want to do the same for Gary. And even though he's a New York times bestselling author and millions of people know who he is and they've read his books. I know that I can help him, at least from my little corner of the world. And then want to tell you very quickly about a program that he has, by the way, it's dirt cheap. So don't walk, run and get registered. It's only $37 bucks a month for his continuity site. And the membership has called An Evening with Gary Zukav. And my opinion $37 is a no brainer to spend an evening with Gary. Getting to talk to him and ask him questions. And what's included is a monthly 60 minute hard opening zoom call. It's live with Gary. You'll deep dive into relevant topics with Gary and get inspiration from Gary. You'll have the opportunity to dialogue with and ask Gary questions. And you'll also actually get journal prompts. That will help you along the way.

There's journal prompts are actually three curated. journal prompts to deepen yourself exploration. Again, I've known who Gary is for a lot of decades. If you're listening to this podcast, obviously you're finding benefit. And my opinion, the guys, one of the greatest spiritual teachers of our time. So, obviously you do not want to miss the opportunity and you want to hop on it. That connect with him personally, to ask him questions. The notes will be on The links will be in the show notes so go and get registered for $37 bucks a month and spend an evening with Gary Zukav. Okay back to the episode.

Jim Fortin:Okay. I got some questions for you. They're, they're pretty simple ones and they're easy and fun ones, or, you know, let's do that. So Kelly, one of my students. She told me, I'll read you the question, it's the longest one, the rest are pretty short. Hey Jim, I do have a question. I read Seat of the Soul many years ago, and if I recall correctly, Gary said something about our souls helping other souls elevate.
I used to be frustrated with my husband because of my perception of his lack of spiritual growth. When I, when I read this, it changed my perception to let me think I was helping him gain or helping him get his soul to a higher frequency just by being compassionate and passionate almost done. The shift in thinking saved my marriage. I'm curious if I interpreted this gary's meaning correctly is the goal to awaken and raise human consciousness and do we have an obligation to help other souls do that?

Gary Zukav: Yes, to the first question. No, to the second, but the yes requires some exploration. Your friend, your student supports her husband being with him, just as everyone in the Earth School supports you that you encounter by being with you. Because if they are loving, you recognize that in them, and it activates a loving part of your personality, which as you become aware, you can recognize as that exactly and not simply a transient or ephemeral phenomenon that you're experiencing. And if they're not, if they're rude, if they're crude, if they're aggressive, they might activate a frightened part of your personality. And a frightened part of your personality is as painful to experience emotionally, somatically, in terms of physical sensations in your body, as a loving part of your personality is blissful to experience.
But when you experience a frightened part of your personality, even though it's painful, it is given to you as a gift. There is nothing in the universe that is not compassionate. The earth's girl itself is compassionate, even though it hurts sometimes. But when someone activates a frightened part of your personality, And you have developed emotional awareness, the ability to look inside you and see what physical sensations you're experiencing in your, chest area, in your throat, throat area, in your solar plexus area. And if it's fear, choose not to act on it, but in that moment, to use your will to move your attention into a part of your personality that's loving. into an experience in which you knew you were loved, or you knew you were loving, from that part of your personality, instead of the frightened part, while you are experiencing the frightened part. 

That's the moment of creating authentic power. And that's how you change your life. Now, do we have an obligation to change the world? No. No. Not at all. Not as long as you think the world is outside of you. That is pursuing external power the ability to manipulate and control, but as your awareness begins to expand, you begin to see, let me put it this way, five sensory humans are the old consciousness, the consciousness from which we are emerging has an uncrossable barrier inside it. And that is the barrier between in here and out there. The new consciousness does not have that barrier. There is no difference. Between in here and out there, and once you see that, you'll see that there is no way that you can change the world other than by changing yourself.

Jim Fortin: Gandhi, be the change you want to see in the world.

Gary Zukav: Yes, Gandhi, my understanding is that Gandhi did not actually say, be the change. That was his, one of his relatives That put that on a website. But no one objected because that was the essence of what Gandhi was saying. You must become the change. If you want, I will say it in my terms, and in, I think, your terms, if you want the world to become kinder, you become kinder. If you want it to become more patient, you become more patient. If you want it to become loving, you love. I have said those words before. But I always thought it was because everything you do affects all of the collectives in which you participate, from your family, through your nation, even through your your gender. But it's even more than that. You and the world are not separate. You and the universe are not separate. You are not separate from anything or anyone. You are not separate from the universe. That means you are the universe. You are a unique expression of the universe. And so is everyone else. As you begin to see that you also begin to get a sense of responsibility for what you want to create in that unique expression of the universe.

Jim Fortin: Okay. Thank you. Thank you I had a lot of questions there, but I'll just keep on going or I'll get off track. Okay. Thanks.

Gary Zukav: You don't have to worry about staying on track with me, Jim, just go wherever the question in your heart is leading you, and I'll be fine with it. Okay. We'll see where it goes, where we go.

Jim Fortin: Because I know it's one of your passions, is speaking about your first book, The Dancing Wu Li Masters, and us creating our experience, and when you were talking about this, where my mind goes, And My teachings and learnings, meaning being taught to me is that be the change you want to see in the world for us to change the planet and have a more harmonious planet and experience here. We, many people try to do things on the outside, but we have to do it on ourself and inside of ourself first. And I started thinking about Dancing Wu Li Masters. Isn't that creating the experience, we're holding our consciousness there and having our attention there?

Gary Zukav: I believe I understand the way in which you're saying it. In a way, yes. This would be my understanding of it. I wrote the book because I realized I got excited about quantum physics. That's why I wrote it.

Jim Fortin: Okay.

Gary Zukav: Because I realized that when I finally pinned It down, quantum physics, It challenges the hegemony of the intellect. It takes us right up to the edge. And that's what I wrote about. Not about that exactly, but about quantum physics. For example, one of the founders of quantum physics was Niels Bohr and Mark. And Niels Bohr created an understanding called complementarity. And complementarity is this it's based on two impossibly different experiences. One of them was an experiment. Which is an experience. One of them was something called Young's Double Slit Experiment. Thomas Young did an experiment in the 1800s that proved without question, indisputably, and forever, that light is a wave like phenomenon and his experiment was so simple in effect, he took a piece of cardboard and a razor blade, and he cut two slits in the cardboard. Just light enough for his light to go through. And he put light on one side and he looked on the other side, on the screen or on the wall in a dark room. And what he saw was in the middle, a bright band, a bright bar of light, and then a dark area. And then on other side of it, another vertical bands of light, not quite as bright and outside of them. Another dark area and then other two more vertical bands of light, but less brilliant. That is an interference pattern, Jim. When you drop two stones into a calm pond at the same time, yeah, waves while you know this emanate from the point of entry. And when those waves reach each other, they start to reinforce. The high part, which is called the amplitude, if it's a high amplitude, reinforces the amplitude of the other wave, and the troughs deepen the troughs of the other wave, and the result is an interference effect, and that's what Thomas Young showed the world, and so it was except that in 1905, about a decade and a half later, Albert Einstein published an experiment that proved the opposite, that proved the particle, that light is a particle like phenomenon, and the two are mutually exclusive. A particle is something that's confined to a point, and a wave is something that's spread out. Here was Einstein's experiment. He took a light source and shined it onto a piece of metal, and that was, in this experiment, Looking at light as particle like, and you might say he was shooting like a machine gun. Photons, these particles at this piece of metal. And every time he did that, electrons went flying out of the metal. Every time a photon hit an electron, it knocked it out of the metal. If the photon was high energy coming in very fast, the electron left the metal very fast. the only explanation for this is that light is particle like, that that light that Einstein shined on the metal was composed of tiny particles, And those particles were individually knocking individual electrons out of the metal, and that proved. Beyond a doubt, indisputably, that light is a particle like phenomenon, and this is the famous, or at least to me, and to people who study
quantum physics, the famous wave particle duality of quantum physics. Now, what to do with that? Yeah. That was a question that? occupied quantum physicists, theoretical physicists, for about a decade, two decades and two years, 27. It was a long time. And what Niels Bohr came to was, we cannot know how reality really is. The word they used was nature with a capital N. We cannot know nature the way it really is. We need to do an experiment to know nature. And the experimenter needs to choose the experiment, and it will either be one that shows that light is wave like, or light is particle like, and in that way, and I don't know if he thought about it in these words, but I think he did, the outcome of that question depends on consciousness, the consciousness of the experimenter, the choice of the experimenter, what will he choose.
Jim Fortin: Yeah.

Gary Zukav: Because, according to complementarity, we cannot know nature without experimenting with it. Now, his colleague was a young man, Werner Heisenberg, and in Werner Heisenberg's co creations with Niels Bohr. He came to the conclusion that he called the Uncertainty Principle, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. And it was this, suppose he said there is an electron revolving around the nucleus of an atom. That's not the way we look at atoms now, but that's the way the people looked at it then. He said, we want to know what is the position of that electron as it's revolving around the nucleus. To do that, we need to illuminate it. That means shine light on it again. And as soon as we shine a light on it, that light knocks the electron out of its orbit. So before we did the experiment, before we had the question, before we began to see where exactly is this electron located, we pretty much knew. But once we did know, but once we shined a light on it, we knocked the electron out of its orbit. And we don't know where it went. In other words, we can't observe nature without altering it. And this is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. So you can see from these two things alone, and there's others like something called a Heisenberg Schrodinger's cat paradox. Yeah. When you put these together, this is what excited me about quantum physics. You know, I had, uh, the Dancing Wu Li Masters as a metaphor that came from the Tai Chi master, um, Al Wong, and I was at Esalen at a physics and consciousness conference with Al Wong, and he said, I studied physics at Taiwan University. We called it Patterns of Organic Energy. I said, oh my goodness, Al, what do you mean organic energy? What's that got to do with physics? And that led to wonderful, wonderful, rich discoveries for me about physics and about what it's called in Chinese and how it's labeled.
I, the name, the Dancing Wu Li Masters, It came from Al Wong, because he said in Chinese we call physics wu li. And I realize that physicists believe that they are discovering, exploring, and discovering things about the physical world. But Wu Li Masters know they're doing something else. They know that they are dancing with the Hindu goddess of illusion, Kali.
So you talked about Ram Dass. He was a Buddhist, , Ross, between Buddhist and, anyway, he was a Hindu.

Jim Fortin: Yeah, not a Rudist, but okay.

Gary Zukav: He was a Hindu, and, and so it is not possible. To explain reality is, but it is experienceable. That's what we talked about earlier. And we are all on a path now into that experience, that expanded experience of non physical reality or you call it, you called it something else, but we're talking about the same thing. Experience beyond the earth school, experience beyond this domain of time and space and matter and duality and fear. Into domains of experience in which those things do not exist. We set an intention by choosing a quality of consciousness and speaking with it or acting with it. And it takes time for that intention to manifest because it works its way, you might say, through the density of physical matter. In non physical reality, that intention is who and what, one with what you are. It's instantaneous. It's instantaneous. We are beginning now to be able to experience this, these domains beyond none, beyond the Earth School. Yet that is an awkward and inaccurate way of saying it, because there is. Not elsewhere. There is nothing beyond. There is here. There is now. Just take us back to Ram Dass's wonderful book, Be Here, Now. And that's because the thing that makes it so wonderful is there's no other place and no other time to be. Yeah. Because there exists no other place and no other time. All of your power is right here, right now. And that, I believe, is what Eckhart Tolle is saying, at least from the name of his book, The Power of Now Yeah. Eckhart's book. Ask him about it. But what else? Well, I'll put it this way. as you expand into the new consciousness. And you are, however slowly, and you may not experience it the way others do in this lifetime, but you will experience it. You begin to move beyond all that you thought was possible, and beyond all that you thought you knew, and into things that you cannot know, because your intellect cannot grasp them. It cannot comprehend them.

Jim Fortin: Yeah, let me simplify this if I can in a simple sentence. We've already talked about that's very complex. Well, to me, it's very, I can follow you because I love quantum physics, not to the degree that you do, but it's intriguing to me and Don Xavier has always said to me. Many years he said the most important thing you can master is your attention because you are where your attention is. And so it seems like we can talk about double slit and Niels Bohr and the, you know, all these experiments, but it really comes down to you are where your attention is and that is right now. And, every moment you're moving your attention And that's where you are in the now, but that's where your attention is.

Gary Zukav: Let's look at that. Jim.

Jim Fortin: Okay.

Gary Zukav: Say, for example, that you decide that you want to look at things in your past. There is no past. Yeah. Suppose that you want to look at things in the future. Worry yourself with that either, because there is no such thing. In other words, what I'm suggesting is that unless You are now in the present moment, you are not loving. It takes a conscious awareness to be loving. Every unconscious intention is an intention of fear. The entire realm of fear is an illusion. That's what Kali represents, the illusion. Dancing Wu li masters know they're not exploring reality And learning about it. They're dancing with Kali. She's a deity. She's an energy. She's immortal and internal, eternal. And she's not a she. She's an impersonal energy dynamic. Just give a name to, the Hindus give a name to. Well, I hope this is helpful, um, when I talked earlier about you being, and every, each of us being, a unique expression of the universe. I wasn't sure how that registered, but I don't know how to make it register, only to suggest that you are more than you think you are. When Genesis told me, you're in a new phase of your evolution. You'll partake now of what I tell you from that place onward, although it wasn't that day onward, but looking back on it, I found more and more that my intellect couldn't explain. Not only, I mean, not, not that he could figure it out. It was not figure audible. For example, if you are the universe, I asked genesis once, are you? and I the same? And Genesis said, yes, we are the same. And I said, well, then if I ask you a question and I hear wisdom as an answer. And I take that answer, where's that wisdom coming from, if not from me?
and Genesis said precisely, this is the beginning of the type of consciousness. That will become yours and maybe is becoming yours now. and this is the consciousness in which doing does not produce results. But we know more than Niels Bohr and Werner Heisenberg and Erwin Schrödinger knew in the early 1900s. We know that it's not only the, in life, the experiment is an interaction. It's a word or a deed. And it requires an intention. not that it requires, it always has an intention. And now we know that we are able to distinguish what that intention is. That's a great gift of our new consciousness. Is the intention love, or is it fear? Because if it's fear, we're going to create destructive consequences in our lives. And if it's love, we're going to create constructive and healthy consequences. We are becoming masters in our lives. And until We do, we'll continue to create unconsciously. There's nothing wrong with that. Let me say that again. There is no wrong thing you can do, And there is no right thing you can do. The universe does not look in terms of right or wrong. Look at it this way. It looks in terms of cause and effect. Every cause has an effect. And the causes in the earth school are either love or fear. And if you participate in the cause, you will and are participating in the effect. That's why I said if someone approaches you in the earth school and they are rude or they betray you or they cheat you, the new consciousness doesn't require that you be kind in return. It doesn't require anything. But what is required is You, how you will either react in fear or respond in love to that experience. And either way, Jim, you will learn there is learning in every experience. There is no right experience. There is no wrong experience. you do not, you, are not rewarded for choosing one thing or punished for choosing another. You create different experiences for yourself. Only you can do that and you then experience the consequences that you have created with your choice of intention. This is the nature of the Earth School. Could there be a learning environment, an educational environment, more exquisite than this one? William James once said, once you see something like this, there is no wind that blows that cannot fill your cells.

Jim Fortin: Speaking of all of this, I think back to a conversation that Bruce Lipton and I were having 1 time and an epiphany that I had prior to the conversation, because I was familiar with in a small way, the double slit experiment, but I Could resonate with it. And basically, as I understood, it is that we create our reality based upon our expectations and our intention for what we're going to create. And I heard Bruce say something, and he and I were talking about it later, because he saw what I saw, and I look at the world that we live in, and I don't know if this is true or not, but I read there are more people actually studying cancer than actually have cancer. Now, I don't know if that's true or not. But you what?
Gary Zukav: I don't either.

Jim Fortin: Yeah, I don't know. But what I look at is where does humanity collectively hold its attention and then look at the experience.
But then I look at, I asked bruce this. Um, I don't think it was in the podcast. Maybe I don't know. But I said, if a scientist is conducting an experiment and they don't think it's going to be, they think it's going to be in a particular way. Doesn't the way they think affect the outcome of the experience, uh, the experiment, which means the experiment is trapped within the consciousness of the observer.
Gary Zukav: Yes. You've mentioned several things. So if I may, I'd like to please, please, The question is not where does humanity hold its attention? The question is, where do you, what are you intending is the determiner of all else in your experience? very much. And it's even more than a determiner of your experience. This is part of the new consciousness. It is a determiner of the world in which you are participating, and not your experience of the world. the world. This is what we're talking, I was talking, about a bit before, Jim, about the uncrossable barrier in consciousness of the, in the old consciousnessbetween in here and out there. That barrier does not exist in the new consciousness, and I don't mean the idea of it doesn't exist, I mean the barrier does not exist, and that is an experience, not an idea. Now, in terms of your second question, Um, doesn't the desire for an outcome craft the shape of the experience of the experiment or shape in the term, in, in terms of Thomas Young. I believe it did. Exactly. He wanted to prove what he proved.
Although I don't know. I haven't read about it. Thomas Young, just his experiment, the case of Albert Einstein, that 1905 paper, which is the one he won the Nobel Prize for, not, not his theories of relativity. I suspect it looks like that he crafted that experiment to demonstrate that there is no other explanation for a light other than it is a particle like phenomenon. Most, I feel, experimenters experiment to find an answer, not to create the proof of an answer they think they already know. If they're open minded, they may already think they know the answer, but they'll do the experiment to see. Just in case something else comes up.
Jim Fortin: But don't you think their consciousness is peppered with their, belief system prior to their, you know, their entire life growing up about cancer or poverty or world condition and wouldn't that subconsciously filter into their scientific work, whether or not they had an expectation consciously.
Gary Zukav: You are, your questions are limited to incarnations in the earth school, an experimenter, a researcher. Seven billion of us that are in the Earth School right now, all of those incarnations are powerful expressions of a soul. They are specifically incarnations of a part of a soul, not The full bodied soul, you might say. The soul has many incarnations, countless incarnations. And from the perspective of the soul, they all happen at the same time. Now let's look at one of those incarnations, say yours or mine or the incarnation of a listener to our podcast. And by incarnation, I'm not saying something mysterious, I'm talking about experience that continues from your birthday until your death day. That we're calling a personality. Each personality in the earth school has a lineage. The lineage of Gary Zukav this incarnation, is Slavic, Ukrainian, and maybe Latvian or Lithuanian. it's German. In other words, it's European. And I haven't had a DNA test to tell me. exactly what else. But energetically, the point is. this everyone, every incarnation has, uh, A lineage. It has ancestors. But, when you realize that you are one of countless personalities of your soul, what is your lineage now? Which one of those are you going to say, this is the lineage? You cannot. You cannot, because they are all incarnations of your soul. So, the new consciousness allows you to expand in awareness beyond the limitations of the five senses, which means, among other things beyond the limitations of your experience of you as an incarnation. And as we move beyond this what would it be like to move beyond human? We will all find out, you as an incarnation. But when you die, you will. I asked Genesis once, can I experience non physical reality while I'm in the earth school, while I am who I am, thinking these things? And he said, if you want, we can work on that But if you do not accomplish that while in physical form, I guarantee you will accomplish it immediately thereafter. So, I suggest that as our consciousness expands, we begin to look from that broader perspective. and that broader perspective includes more than one incarnation at a time, and it includes interacting in ways that are broader than that. For example, when you meet someone and you like that. person, you're attracted to them or repelled by them. That's a personality to personality interaction. From the new consciousness you begin to see each personality as a custom, as an earth suit you might say, and you are no longer so much fascinated by the earth suit as you are by what is wearing it, That is a soul to soul connection. that is a timeless connection that is meaningful. I hope that some of this is relevant to what your questions were.
Jim Fortin: Yeah, no, you, you, you did answer. And this will take us to the end of our time today. So we can keep it an hour a day. I read somewhere one time and I love the phrase and
I've said it before and it resonates with me that there is no chaos in the world. The only chaos is in your mind. And somebody asked me to ask you On the podcast,
Gary Zukav: Before we leave that, that, that was such a juicy thing to say.
Jim Fortin: Okay. One for Jim today. I got something in the wind.

Gary Zukav: Oh, you got it. You got a lot, Jim. Every perception reveals the structure of the perceiver. So if you're looking at a chaotic world, you're looking at the structure of your consciousness. If you're looking at a loving world, you're looking at the same thing, the structure of your consciousness. You are not looking at a world that exists outside of you and independently. There is nothing that exists outside of you and independently. so now let's move on with, I just wanted to say,

Jim Fortin: Well, it's just, I'm sitting here and all of our conversations, because I don't want to pair
it. And I do have a brain and a mind that I could think on my own, but Don Xavier has always said to me, he goes, the reason that people have such challenges is because they won't change their structures. You change your structure, the world changes for you. And that's the exact word that he uses. And then here you go using the word structure.
Gary Zukav: Now that's creating authentic power in our language. But in anyone's language, it is simply becoming what you want to be. and as you are that, the new consciousness is simultaneously expanding your awareness far beyond what you thought you were doing. That sounded a bit mystical, even to me. You are a powerful and creative, compassionate and loving spirit. You can start with that. That's comprehensible, at least the words are. But the consciousness is going to take you beyond your intellect, beyond the words. and into domains of experience that are real. They are real. From the old consciousness, they don't even exist. in the new consciousness, you know that they exist. You begin to experience them. and You might look at this major transformation from five century to multi century, which is the big breaking news now. This is the big thing that's happening. It's never happened before. But beyond that, And, beyond multi sensory humanity is the universal human. There are no universal humans now, because universal humans emerge From authentically powerful multi sensory humans, and those are coming into, into being. Beyond universal human, let me put it this way, universal human is, the last step. In human, as we step beyond that, we step beyond human. And that's some of what I've been sharing with you, that where we are going, you might say, it's awareness without a single focal point, the way, we experience it. now. Five sensory humans identify themselves in one word, personality. Multisensory humans identify themselves in one word, soul. Universal humans identify themselves. With one word, Life, with a capital L. And beyond that evolution continues. there is no end to evolution. You have no final goal. You are creating continually. I once asked Genesis about what I should do about writing a book or not writing a book, and he said, Gary, there is no path already established for you that you can discover and follow. You create the path. Moment by moment, choice by choice.
Jim Fortin: Wouldn't that be Young's double slit experiment? You create the path again by your intention and holding it where you hold it, which then affects the physical universe.
Gary Zukav: No.
Jim Fortin: Okay.
Gary Zukav: no there is no connection between the consciousness I'm talking about and Young's double slit experiment, which was all in the domain of five century humanity by five
century particle physicists exploring what they thought was a five century world. But we have meaning and we can use our sense of meaning. We can project into what we see meaning. And in fact, we That is what meaning is a projection. That is what every experience is, and every emotion is a projection. and what is it projecting? In the Earth school, at one level, it is projecting your psychic, your consciousness as a, as an incarnation. But we are moving beyond those limitations. and we are seeing meaning where we didn't see meaning before. There's lots of examples of this and we can explore some of them later to make the show run late, but I did want to follow through on some of the interesting things that you're offering.
Jim Fortin: No, we're not running late, but I know we had talked last time about staying to an hour just for different reasons. And I want, I want to honor that next time we can pick up with stepping beyond human. Yeah, those are your words a few minutes ago. And I want to talk more about your two favorite subjects next time, love And You said this, not me. You said, these are my favorite subjects, love, And they're my favorite subjects to love and death. So we can pick that up next time we visit.
Gary Zukav: Yes, let's do.

Jim Fortin: Okay. Gary, thank you so much for sharing with the audience today and obviously we put in the, uh, in the episode, how people can connect with you how they can spend an evening with you people listening will have already heard that it's in the podcast, how they can reach out and spend an evening with Gary Zukav and I definitely recommend that everyone listening, reach out and spend an evening with Gary Zukav you'll be glad you did. I'm kidding, but thank me later for that. So thank you for being here, Gary, And I'll talk to you soon.
Gary Zukav: Thank you, Jim. It's always a joy to be with you.
Jim Fortin: Okay. So hopefully you enjoyed this episode as much as I really from the heart enjoy doing these episodes with Gary and bringing them to you. Come on back we have eight episodes in this series, four episodes of Gary and I, and then four episodes of me commenting and taking apart further what Gary and I have talked about. So make sure you come on back and listen to the entire series. And if you're new to the podcast, I tell people because we often think that the older material is not as relevant. If you're new to the podcast, I tell people go all the way back to the beginning as well and star listening there. You will find that there was life-changing content all the way through these podcast episodes. Thanks for listening and I'll catch you over on another episode. Bye-bye.

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Jim Fortin

Jim is an international subconscious self-transformation and high performance expert with over two decades of expertise in brain based transformation and high performance. Using a brain based approach coupled with transformational psychology and ancient wisdom Jim has created programs that create long-term core-level life transformation in his students.

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